What is Calvinism? Also.. does God elect those who are to be saved?

[TCGreek]

Directing my attention to the OP, I would say that indeed God does elect those that will be saved, by determining the conditions He mandates and being cognizant of the decisions that will be voluntarily made by men and women in light of them. That is clearly not the election Calvinism portrays, but it is indeed election.

You're correct! It is not the election we see in Calvinism or in Scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

What is Calvinism? Also.. does God elect those who are to be saved?

Some people say there is no point in preaching the word because from the beggining of the world God had already chosen his elect and that they will be saved. Is that true??

The TULIP shorthand for Calvinism is BEST in defining the various "flavors" of Calvinism.

"God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Peter 3 - is one of the best arguments against 4 and 5 point Calvinism.

But 3 point Calvinists would actually agree to 2Peter 3.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
Directing my attention to the OP, I would say that indeed God does elect those that will be saved, by determining the conditions He mandates and being cognizant of the decisions that will be voluntarily made by men and women in light of them. That is clearly not the election Calvinism portrays, but it is indeed election.

TCGreek: You're correct! It is not the election we see in Calvinism or in Scripture.

HP: Where does Scripture tell us that what I presented as election is not true?

 

[BobRyan]

What is Calvinism? Also.. does God elect those who are to be saved?

Some people say there is no point in preaching the word because from the beggining of the world God had already chosen his elect and that they will be saved. Is that true??

God has always known who will be saved - who will CHOOSE to accept the light vs rejecting the light.

But still God Draws ALL and Loves the WORLD dying for our sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

I think 3 point Calvinists actually agree with that point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
Directing my attention to the OP, I would say that indeed God does elect those that will be saved, by determining the conditions He mandates and being cognizant of the decisions that will be voluntarily made by men and women in light of them. That is clearly not the election Calvinism portrays, but it is indeed election.



HP: Where does Scripture tell us that what I presented as election is not true?

Show me a Scripture where election is applied to a plan or the conditions of salvation.

 

[antiaging]

What is Calvinism? Also.. does God elect those who are to be saved?

Some people say there is no point in preaching the word because from the beggining of the world God had already chosen his elect and that they will be saved. Is that true??

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God has chosen to elect all that believe in Jesus as Lord and Saviour and repent of sin.
The people have free will whether or not they want to believe it.
God, being omnipotent, already knows who will believe and repent and who will not believe and repent.

Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
Mark 4:25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

It seems like if a person is moving toward the truth, more truth will be given him.
If a person is moving away from the truth and has pleasure in unrighteousness, he will lose what truth he had and be deceived.
Sort of like the principle of momentum in science. An object will continue to go the way it is going unless acted on by an outside force.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCGreek: Show me a Scripture where election is applied to a plan or the conditions of salvation.

HP: I may not understand fully what you are asking for. Could you ask it in another way with possibly further explanation as to your request? Thanks.

 

[TCGreek]

HP: I may not understand fully what you are asking for. Could you ask it in another way with possibly further explanation as to your request? Thanks.

You said that Election refers to a plan or conditions for salvation; well, I'm asking for scripture evidence. Thanks.

 

[skypair]

It seems like if a person is moving toward the truth, more truth will be given him. If a person is moving away from the truth and has pleasure in unrighteousness, he will lose what truth he had and be deceived.
Sort of like the principle of momentum in science. An object will continue to go the way it is going unless acted on by an outside force.

Agreed. That's what Rom 1 is all about, right? God has a witness to EVERYONE! Glorify and thank Him or become vain in your imaginations and your foolish heart will be darkened.

Thanks for the reminder, antiaging! BTW, what's your secret to antiaging? :love2:

skypair

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCGreek: You said that Election refers to a plan or conditions for salvation; well, I'm asking for scripture evidence. Thanks.

HP: Scripture plainly states that there are two initial conditions to salvation, i.e., repentance and faith.

Repentance established clearly be Scripture: Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lu 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Mr 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Even in the OT, the Jews recognized clearly that no sacrifice would be effective apart from repentance on the part of the individual bringing the sacrifice.

Faith established as a condition of salvation. Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. “1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

We also know that God elects us to salvation. Due to the fact that God commands us to repent and have faith in order to receive the hope of salvation, it is clear that His election is in light of those that will voluntarily fulfill those conditions. Justice demands no other explanation, and Scripture provides no other evidence to the contrary.

 

[TCGreek]

HP: Scripture plainly states that there are two initial conditions to salvation, i.e., repentance and faith.

Repentance established clearly be Scripture: Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lu 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Mr 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Even in the OT, the Jews recognized clearly that no sacrifice would be effective apart from repentance on the part of the individual bringing the sacrifice.

Faith established as a condition of salvation. Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. “1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

We also know that God elects us to salvation. Due to the fact that God commands us to repent and have faith in order to receive the hope of salvation, it is clear that His election is in light of those that will voluntarily fulfill those conditions. Justice demands no other explanation, and Scripture provides no other evidence to the contrary.

HP, I'm awaiting the Scriptures which say that "repentance and faith" are the proper objects of divine election. Thank you.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCGreek: HP, I'm awaiting the Scriptures which say that "repentance and faith" are the proper objects of divine election. Thank you.

HP: No need to wait. Simply accept the passages God gave to us by faith.:thumbs: Election is clearly in agreement with what God stated ‘without which’ to perish is the only option.

 

[TCGreek]

HP: No need to wait. Simply accept the passages God gave to us by faith.:thumbs: Election is clearly in agreement with what God stated ‘without which’ to perish is the only option.

I go by Scripture not opinions. Until you bring me Scripture, I simply cannot take your position seriously.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCGreek: I go by Scripture not opinions. Until you bring me Scripture, I simply cannot take your position seriously.

HP: That is a mere sophistic notion. Scripture is subject to interpretation, and yes, you interpret what you read as do the rest of us. Interpretation to a large degree can be classified as ones opinion of the text. You voice your opinions as often as do we all.

Show us what you find to be the Scriptural definition of election. Prove by Scripture that election is not to be viewed in light of repentance and faith.

 

[TCGreek]

HP: That is a mere sophistic notion. Scripture is subject to interpretation, and yes, you interpret what you read as do the rest of us. Interpretation to a large degree can be classified as ones opinion of the text. You voice your opinions as often as do we all.

Show us what you find to be the Scriptural definition of election. Prove by Scripture that election is not to be viewed in light of repentance and faith.

It is clear to me that you have no Scripture for your assertions. At best that's what they are.

I don't have to prove to you that repentance and faith are part of election. All I have to do is state what Scripture clearly says. And Scripture clearly says that people are the objects of election:

Acts 13:48

1 Thess 1:4

2 Thess 2:13

2 Pet 1:10

 

[DHK]

HP: That is a mere sophistic notion. Scripture is subject to interpretation, and yes, you interpret what you read as do the rest of us. Interpretation to a large degree can be classified as ones opinion of the text. You voice your opinions as often as do we all.

"mere sophistic notion"
Your post is very condescending.
You avoid Scripture.
It seems as if you deny the very basis on which we as Baptists debate doctrine: sola scriptura.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCGreek: I don't have to prove to you that repentance and faith are part of election. All I have to do is state what Scripture clearly says. And Scripture clearly says that people are the objects of election:

HP: What does it mean to be an ‘object of election?’

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: It seems as if you deny the very basis on which we as Baptists debate doctrine: sola scriptura.

HP: I am sorry DHK if you find my comments condescending. It was not intended to be taken as such. I was trying to insert a dose of mere needed reality.

The same goes for any and all of us. Everything we say Scripture is claiming is subject to our interpretations of the verse. Your approach, regardless if you name it ‘sola scriptura’ or not, is as subject to your own interpretation and induction of error due to bias and presuppositions as anyone else’s interpretation is.

 

[Crabtownboy]

What is Calvinism? Also.. does God elect those who are to be saved?

Some people say there is no point in preaching the word because from the begining of the world God had already chosen his elect and that they will be saved. Is that true??

I guess Paul, Peter, etc. ... all those fellows were wasting them time going around preaching if your statement is true. Of course that is what Calvinists said about missionaries...why send them, if God wants the heathen saved he will save them. Very strange theology.:tonofbricks:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Crabtownboy: Of course that is what Calvinists said about missionaries...why send them

HP: If we carried out the arguments of others on this list to their logical conclusions, they as well would find missionary efforts less than needful at the least. Take BR and his assertion that the gospel has always been, is now, and forever will be made available to all men of all ages. How cannot one end up with the same conclusion, that in essence missionary efforts are in actuality meaningless, for it would be accomplished with or without their efforts?