What is Calvinism? Also.. does God elect those who are to be saved?

[Crabtownboy]

HP: If we carried out the arguments of others on this list to their logical conclusions, they as well would find missionary efforts less than needful at the least. Take BR and his assertion that the gospel has always been, is now, and forever will be made available to all men of all ages. How cannot one end up with the same conclusion, that in essence missionary efforts are in actuality meaningless, for it would be accomplished with or without their efforts?

And if we carried the logic even further than why do anything as anything God wants done will come about anyway, and anything God does not want done will never come about. Very strange logic ... very strange belief.:tonofbricks:

 

[TCGreek]

HP: What does it mean to be an ‘object of election?’

Per the above Scripture references, people are elected, so they're "objections of election." I hope that helps.

 

[DHK]

HP: I am sorry DHK if you find my comments condescending. It was not intended to be taken as such. I was trying to insert a dose of mere needed reality.

The same goes for any and all of us. Everything we say Scripture is claiming is subject to our interpretations of the verse. Your approach, regardless if you name it ‘sola scriptura’ or not, is as subject to your own interpretation and induction of error due to bias and presuppositions as anyone else’s interpretation is.

In the post that I was responding to you were asked to provide Scripture for your position. Your simple reply was to say that even if you did it would be open to interpretation, so you didn't.
That IMO is an arrogant attitude. What would be the use of debate if we all answered each other in that way. It is childish is it not.
HP: "I'm not going to give you any more Scripture because you will just interpret according to your pressuppositions. Discussion is now closed." Shall I answer every post with those words?
As I said, the basis of our discussion is sola scriptura. In order for that to be true, the Scripture must be used whether or not you have a different take on it. Don't shoot it down before it has even had a chance to be discussed.

 

[TCGreek]

Per the above Scripture references, people are elected, so they're "objections (should be "objects") of election." I hope that helps.

HP, I made a spelling blunder in the original post above.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCGreek: HP, I made a spelling blunder in the original post above.

HP: I object!:laugh:

TCG: Per the above Scripture references, people are elected, so they're "objects of election." I hope that helps.

HP: Your explanation of election does not clarify anything to me. Try giving us your definition of election.

 

[TCGreek]

HP: I object!:laugh:




HP: Your explanation of election does not clarify anything to me. Try giving us your definition of election.

Now we have moved from the true objects of election to what is election. HP, make up your mind!

 

[charles_creech78]

2pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should PERISH, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[TCGreek]

2pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should PERISH, but that all should come to repentance.

Amen, bro. :thumbs:

 

[bbas 64]

What is Calvinism? Also.. does God elect those who are to be saved?

Some people say there is no point in preaching the word because from the beggining of the world God had already chosen his elect and that they will be saved. Is that true??

Good Day, TaiOrlando

Here is a pastor down your way teaching these doctrines.

http://graceworx.com/BFC.html

In Him,

Bill

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCGreek: Now we have moved from the true objects of election to what is election. HP, make up your mind!

HP: When the word ‘election’ is used, by itself or speaking of it’s object, the word election must carry with it certain ideas as to what it entails. If you cannot define ‘election,’ what good does it do to speak of the ‘objects’ of election? It begs the question, objects of what?

When you read the word 'election' in Scripture, tell us the concept it places in your mind along with those ideas which you feel are excluded as a result of those concepts. Use whatever means you feel is appropriate to elucidate the concept of what election must and must not entail to the listener. If you cannot, how can you say you have a clear understanding of Scripture when it uses the word? How can you disagree if another's concept induces ideas foreign to your own?

 

[BobRyan]

2pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should PERISH, but that all should come to repentance.

Preach it! :thumbs:

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Question for the group - is there ANY TEXT in scripture that said -

"they go to hell because God failed to elect them for heaven"???

No? Not even one????

Then where does this tradition come from??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The problem that I have with 4 and 5 point Calvinism is that it frames God's Gospel within a "sleezy marketing campaign" kind of double-speak.

1. Sure God "so loves the World" the "WORLD of 3 people that He chooses to love".

2. Sure God "Draws ALL unto Him" John 12:32 -- "ALL of the 3 people He chooses to draw".

3. Sure "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to COME TO repentance" -- "ALL of the 3 people He selected".

4. Sure God "stands at the door and knocks so that if ANYONE hears AND OPENS the door then He WILL come in" because He is ALREADY IN fellowship and reconciled to the 3 people He selected.

5. Sure God "was IN CHRIST reconciling the WORLD to Himself" -- because those "3 people he selected were IN the WORLD" or maybe "the WORLD of 3 people he selected was reconciled".

Any marketing company that tried to issue expansive "world wide" scope statements like that to be really interpreted as "the 3 people we pick" would be instantly understood to be a company NOT true to it's word.

Basically Calvinism has selected a lawyereez-fineprint-doublespeak-marketing solution for areas where it does not have a good answer for what Scripture is saying.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

HP: When the word ‘election’ is used, by itself or speaking of it’s object, the word election must carry with it certain ideas as to what it entails. If you cannot define ‘election,’ what good does it do to speak of the ‘objects’ of election? It begs the question, objects of what?

When you read the word 'election' in Scripture, tell us the concept it places in your mind along with those ideas which you feel are excluded as a result of those concepts. Use whatever means you feel is appropriate to elucidate the concept of what election must and must not entail to the listener. If you cannot, how can you say you have a clear understanding of Scripture when it uses the word? How can you disagree if another's concept induces ideas foreign to your own?

Since we are engaged in a healthy discussion, I asked you before to prove me Scripture references that repentance and faith are part of election, but I've seen none.

When you are able to answer me or say that there's none, if that turns out to be the case, then I'll answer your other questions.

I makes no sense for me to keep answering your questions when there are unresolved issues that are critical to our discussion. Thank you.

 

[bbas 64]

2pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should PERISH, but that all should come to repentance.

Good Day, Charles

Really unfair to quote out of Context, so allow me to build it out for you:

2 Peter 3:1-10

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

**Remember this is written to Believers**

2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

* believers- beloved,YE

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

*Un regenerate man

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

*Unregenerate Man's Charge
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

* Unbelivers rewards for thier ungodly- ness

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

*Believers
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

* Believers – Charge of the ungodly in verse #4 rebuffed


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


*Reward for Believers


In verse 9 the “us-ward” and the “all”are pronouns, so to which noun do they refer?

What is the promise that is being addressed?

In Him,

Bill

 

[bbas 64]

The problem that I have with 4 and 5 point Calvinism is that it frames God's Gospel within a "sleezy marketing campaign" kind of double-speak.

1. Sure God "so loves the World" the "WORLD of 3 people that He chooses to love".

Good Day, BobRyan

So that the one's who are believing (verb) should not perish, the not perishing has nothing to do with the "world" Jesus does not pray for the world.

2. Sure God "Draws ALL unto Him" John 12:32 -- "ALL of the 3 people He chooses to draw".

He said this to show the manner in which he (Jesus) would die. Thed Father Draws for the explict purpose to be raise in the last day by the Son Jn6.

3. Sure "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to COME TO repentance" -- "ALL of the 3 people He selected".".

Cover this passage already.

4. Sure God "stands at the door and knocks so that if ANYONE hears AND OPENS the door then He WILL come in" because He is ALREADY IN fellowship and reconciled to the 3 people He selected.".

The old fallacy of the one sided door knob :laugh:

5. Sure God "was IN CHRIST reconciling the WORLD to Himself" -- because those "3 people he selected were IN the WORLD" or maybe "the WORLD of 3 people he selected was reconciled".

Any marketing company that tried to issue expansive "world wide" scope statements like that to be really interpreted as "the 3 people we pick" would be instantly understood to be a company NOT true to it's word.

Basically Calvinism has selected a lawyereez-fineprint-doublespeak-marketing solution for areas where it does not have a good answer for what Scripture is saying.

in Christ,

Bob

I pray not for the world, but those that you have given me. You really should read Jn 17. Where you get this number of "3" is beyond me may be you like that number. He saves people from every tribe, and nation "world".

God has a plan, not a wish, he has a purpose not a hope.

His predestined the plan, the Son provided the means for His plan, the Spirit applys the result to God's adopted children.

In Him,

Bill

 

[bbas 64]

God has always known who will be saved - who will CHOOSE to accept the light vs rejecting the light.

But still God Draws ALL and Loves the WORLD dying for our sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

I think 3 point Calvinists actually agree with that point.

in Christ,

Bob

Good Day, Bob

Seeing men hate the light, no body will ever choose that which they hate. (no Man can)

God Draws alll , and yet in your view fails in the purpose for which he draws.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Father draws and the Son (I will) raises. The Drawn ones are the saved ones.

In Him,

Bill

 

[bbas 64]

Question for the group - is there ANY TEXT in scripture that said -

"they go to hell because God failed to elect them for heaven"???
No? Not even one????

Then where does this tradition come from??

in Christ,

Bob

Good Day, Bob

Why the straw man?

I do not know of any person who holds to "The Doctrines of Grace" that ever said such a thing....

Do you have a source, if so please cite.

In HIm,

Bill

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim

HP: When the word ‘election’ is used, by itself or speaking of it’s object, the word election must carry with it certain ideas as to what it entails. If you cannot define ‘election,’ what good does it do to speak of the ‘objects’ of election? It begs the question, objects of what?

When you read the word 'election' in Scripture, tell us the concept it places in your mind along with those ideas which you feel are excluded as a result of those concepts. Use whatever means you feel is appropriate to elucidate the concept of what election must and must not entail to the listener. If you cannot, how can you say you have a clear understanding of Scripture when it uses the word? How can you disagree if another's concept induces ideas foreign to your own?

TCGreek: Since we are engaged in a healthy discussion, I asked you before to prove me Scripture references that repentance and faith are part of election, but I've seen none.

HP: Let’s be fair here. I know of no Scripture itself that states on its own merits alone that repentance and faith are part of election, neither is there any verses that on their own merits exclude them from election. That knife cuts both ways. If in fact they are linked or not we are going to have to use our intellect to come to a reasonable conclusion.

We both know that whatever election means, or what is or is not linked to it, is in someway linked to whether or not one will find themselves in possession of eternal life at the judgment. Reason would clearly suggest that if election is involved in salvation or the lack thereof, any and all other issues directly related to salvation would have an impact on and either affect or be affected by election.

Clearly understanding the link between election and any other conditions of salvation mentioned in Scripture, I posted the following scriptural passages of those conditions in post #30. Scripture plainly states that there are two initial conditions to salvation, i.e., repentance and faith.

Repentance established clearly be Scripture: Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lu 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Mr 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Even in the OT, the Jews recognized clearly that no sacrifice would be effective apart from repentance on the part of the individual bringing the sacrifice.

Faith established as a condition of salvation. Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. “1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

We also know that God elects us to salvation. Due to the fact that God commands us to repent and have faith in order to receive the hope of salvation, it is clear that His election is in light of those that will voluntarily fulfill those conditions. Justice demands no other explanation, and Scripture provides no other evidence to the contrary.

So you see, I have in fact provided the Scriptural evidence that clearly effects election, contrary to your remarks.

TCGReek: When you are able to answer me or say that there's none, if that turns out to be the case, then I'll answer your other questions.

HP: Now that I have twice fulfilled your request, it is your turn to facilitate this discussion to provide any or all Scriptural passages that would disannul repentance and faith as linked to election. I would ask kindly again that you define for the list election as you see it. Show us biblically and logically why three things tied directly to salvation, i.e., election, repentance and faith, are not linked together and as such none can be addressed apart from the others concerning salvation due to the necessitated cohesiveness Scripture places upon all three issues concerning salvation.

 

[TCGreek]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim






HP: Let’s be fair here. I know of no Scripture itself that states on its own merits alone that repentance and faith are part of election, neither is there any verses that on their own merits exclude them from election. That knife cuts both ways. If in fact they are linked or not we are going to have to use our intellect to come to a reasonable conclusion.

I'm content with what Scripture says about the true objects of election. The Scripture explicitly says that people are the true objects of election.

This is not ambiguous at all. You are making what is clear unclear.

I simply do not accept your premise that "the knife cuts both ways." Scripture is clear.