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What is Calvinism? Also.. does God elect those who are to be saved?
- Thread starter TaliOrlando
- Start date
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Where is ‘election’ mentioned in this verse?
HP: Where is ‘election’ in this verse? You have not defined election yet so I see no connection unless I see the word election. :saint:
HP: 1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
Finally a verse with the word election in it. First, you have to tell us what the definition of the word election is, which you consistently refuse to do. How do I know what you see in the word unless you tell us what election means to you, backed up by Scripture of course.:thumbs:
HP: What does this verse have to do with election??
HP: No election in this verse at all. Are you having a bad day?
TCG, until you are willing to define and show us by Scripture what election means, what good does it do to make a list of Scriptures? It is still subject to ones subjective viewpoint as to what interpretation one places on the word 'election,' would you not agree?
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
1. The word is not there but the concept is. At any rate...
Here's Eph 1:3-4:
"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love" (TNIV, emphasis mine).
"He chose" translates the Greek eklegomai, "to choose, to select." This is clearly election.
"Election" is from eklogē, the same root as eklegomai; so it is not true to say that it doesn't appear in Eph 1:4.
Take it up with the translators of our English versions. A rule of thumb: always go back to the original language.
2 Thess 2:13 not v. 12 (my bad): here's part of the verse: "because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved" (emphasis mine).
"Chose" is from αἱρέομαι, "to take out for oneself" and is a synonym of eklegomai.
HP: No election in this verse at all. Are you having a bad day?
Here's part of the verse again: "To God's elect"
"Elect" is from eklektos, the adjective of eklegomai (Eph 1:4)
I've made my case for each Scripture reference. Again, in each instance, people are the objects of election.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: What is election and how does it work? Does election have conditions? If not why not. Scripture please.
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: What is election and how does it work? Does election have conditions? If not why not. Scripture please.
HP, despite your uneven approach to debating, I'll oblige.
When God is the subject of the verb or verbally-embedded election, He is seen as choosing, selecting--that is what Scripture means by election (Eph 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13).
When I look at Scripture, I see no conditions of election (2 Thess 2:13). God simply chooses people.
What is Calvinism? Also.. does God elect those who are to be saved?
It was stated that there is no condition to election. In the following verses the condition is clearly stated: receiving the word.
I Thess. 1
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. 5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. 6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.
And in the following the condition is stated again: being in him - which is the only way to be found without blame before God. God knew this was our only hope.
Eph. 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Acts 13:48 uses the greek word "tasso".
When one reads this verse with the predisposed idea of unconditional election it will support their doctrine. However, if read like I Cor. 16:15 one would come to a different conclusion.
I Cor. 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to(greek tasso) the ministry of the saints,)
The following verse is probably the best verse to help us understand the true meaning of election. It is not an arbitrary choice that God made. Rather it is the plan that God designed. Because of the foreknowledge of God, He came up with the means for us to be made holy.
I Peter 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
Clearly, the condition for our election is being pure and holy. Blameless and without spot. And the only way to be that is being in Christ. We are able to be such by faith, not of works lest any man should boast. Faith is not a work and it is the avenue by which God imputes to us the holiness that we need.
"by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
It was stated that there is no condition to election. In the following verses the condition is clearly stated: receiving the word.
I Thess. 1
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. 5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. 6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.
And in the following the condition is stated again: being in him - which is the only way to be found without blame before God. God knew this was our only hope.
Eph. 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Acts 13:48 uses the greek word "tasso".
When one reads this verse with the predisposed idea of unconditional election it will support their doctrine. However, if read like I Cor. 16:15 one would come to a different conclusion.
I Cor. 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to(greek tasso) the ministry of the saints,)
The following verse is probably the best verse to help us understand the true meaning of election. It is not an arbitrary choice that God made. Rather it is the plan that God designed. Because of the foreknowledge of God, He came up with the means for us to be made holy.
I Peter 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
Clearly, the condition for our election is being pure and holy. Blameless and without spot. And the only way to be that is being in Christ. We are able to be such by faith, not of works lest any man should boast. Faith is not a work and it is the avenue by which God imputes to us the holiness that we need.
"by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
TCGreek insists that the object of election (whatever he believes that is and consists of) is the individual alone. Seriously, I cannot see the relevance of his point here. Why could not it be stated that the object of election is the ‘salvation’ or the lack thereof of salvation? Salvation is not the individual, nor is the individual salvation. These are two distinct yet connected objects are they not? We do not have to play the game of one or the other ‘exclusively’ do we? Cannot the object of salvation be seen as relating to different lights in different senses?
Why cannot the fulfillment of Gods Love be seen as the object of salvation and or election? I am certain there are other objects involved as well that Scripture points to if we will examine it carefully.
Why cannot the fulfillment of Gods Love be seen as the object of salvation and or election? I am certain there are other objects involved as well that Scripture points to if we will examine it carefully.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I liked your post.:thumbs: It gives much fodder for this debate. What about repentance? Why could not repentance be seen as the object of salvation or a condition thereof?
I believe what you are pointing out as conditions can be seen in a sense to be the objects of election. For example the passage you mention about “that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:” Could not this as well be stated as the object of salvation, according to the plain Word of God? I see that as your point, and an excellent one. :thumbs:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Just suppose there is a clear passage in the OT that does that very thing. What would you say to that?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Why don't we start here?
Jos 24:15 ¶ And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Jos 24:15 ¶ And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Why not start with Deut 7:7-8:
The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt (tniv, emphasis mine).
In Jos 24:15 the people were already God's elect people. They lapsed into idolatry and needed to rid themselves of the gods (v. 14) and return to the One, true God of the Shema.
So Jos 24:15 is of no help to you.
This verse in Deut. is merely speaking about God keeping this promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It is not addressing the concept of "unconditional election" to salvation for individuals. He speaks about "peoples" in the sense of nations or groups.
The verse in Joshua is addressed to each man as the head of his family. Joshua is speaking for himself and his familly and states that he is "choosing" to go with God.
TCGreek
In Jos 24:15 the people were already God's elect people. They lapsed into idolatry and needed to rid themselves of the gods (v. 14) and return to the One, true God of the Shema.
How is it they would "return". Shouldn't it be said "be returned". Saying that Joshuas challenge to choose is of no value shows your unwillingness to acknowledge mans ability to choose.
The verse in Joshua is addressed to each man as the head of his family. Joshua is speaking for himself and his familly and states that he is "choosing" to go with God.
TCGreek
In Jos 24:15 the people were already God's elect people. They lapsed into idolatry and needed to rid themselves of the gods (v. 14) and return to the One, true God of the Shema.
How is it they would "return". Shouldn't it be said "be returned". Saying that Joshuas challenge to choose is of no value shows your unwillingness to acknowledge mans ability to choose.
Somehow Ephesians seems pretty clear on the subject.
Ephesians 1:4-14
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory."
Ephesians 1:4-14
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory."
What is Calvinism? Also.. does God elect those who are to be saved?
Ya don't like that Joshua verse do you. Must be that choose word. But, if you insist, we can look at Abraham.
Romans 4:1 "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness"
Election is not an eeny meeny miny mo game God played before the foundations of the world regardless of what ones doctrine says. God had a very clear plan that he would elect those who were righteous. This righteousness has always been a gift from God, through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.
Heb. 11:39 And these all,(including Joshua) having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise
Ya don't like that Joshua verse do you. Must be that choose word. But, if you insist, we can look at Abraham.
Romans 4:1 "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness"
Election is not an eeny meeny miny mo game God played before the foundations of the world regardless of what ones doctrine says. God had a very clear plan that he would elect those who were righteous. This righteousness has always been a gift from God, through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.
Heb. 11:39 And these all,(including Joshua) having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise