What is Calvinism? Also.. does God elect those who are to be saved?

[trustitl]

Somehow Ephesians seems pretty clear on the subject.


Ephesians 1:4-14
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory."

Wonderful words.

He chose us in Him.
In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace
which he purposed in Christ
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan
who were the first to hope in Christ
Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal

I know you won't see it this way, but the predestination was the means which God would save us. Being IN CHRIST, through His blood, was God's plan: it was not randomly picking some for salvation and leaving others to damnation with no chance for salvation.

Have you ever heard of the book Elect in the Son by Robert Shank? He was a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary and wrote this in the 60's.

 

[BobRyan]

Please, correct me if I'm wrong,

But I've seen no NT Scripture where people are the subject of the verb elect and God as the object.

Luke 10:42 - Mary is doing the choosing.

Acts 6:5 the church leaders do their own choosing

I am still trying to find a good LXX search tool online for reference here.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

God has already made His choice --

He chose to "So love the World that He Gave"

He chose to not be "willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"

The free will choice of God is of the form "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE hears my voice AND opens the door I WILL COME IN and fellowship with him" Rev 3.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Calvinist "election" nothing more than "arbitrary selection"??

When Calvinists are asked "on what basis does God elects person-A over person-B?"

On what basis does God find Himself partial-towards,biased/prejudiced in favor of one lost sinner over another?

Is the answer -

Wealth?
Education?
Political standing?
A relative of a good spiritual person?
Inclination to "do right"?
the person's CHOICE?

No.

Spurgeon and Johnathan Edwards were adamant that exactly and precisely NOTHING about that person could in anyway predetermine their being selected by God.

The FEW in Matt 7 are "elected" by God for salvation according to these calvinist but NOT on the basis of ANYTHING about that person.

It is simply God's sovereign choice not influenced by an "attribute or action" of the person.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bbas 64]

God has already made His choice --

He chose to "So love the World that He Gave"

He chose to not be "willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"

The free will choice of God is of the form "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE hears my voice AND opens the door I WILL COME IN and fellowship with him" Rev 3.

in Christ,

Bob

Good Day, Bob

Still loving the one sided door knob fallacy ....:BangHead:

And you uncontexual reading of the text I see.

In Him,

Bill

 

[TCGreek]

Luke 10:42 - Mary is doing the choosing.

Acts 6:5 the church leaders do their own choosing

I am still trying to find a good LXX search tool online for reference here.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, you're missing the point (I really hate to say that, but that's the case).

We are not robots in the scheme of redemption. We have 100% human response.

"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit" (John 15:16, tniv).

"We love because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19, tniv).

 

[BobRyan]

Ok then where does Election come in - if all humans have the choice to accept the Gospel or not?

 

[TCGreek]

Ok then where does Election come in - if all humans have the choice to accept the Gospel or not?

1. Bob, I can only go with what I see in Scripture. I'm not clever enough to fabricate a doctrine and then label it as scriptural, when that is not the case.

2. For example, we read in Neh 9:7:

"You are the Lord God, who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and named him Abraham" (tniv, emphasis mine).

3. The Hebrew word for chose is bâchar, qal, "to choose," and its Greek equivalent according to the LXX is ἐξελέξω from eklegomai, same as in NT (Eph 1:4; 1 Thess 1:4).

4. People are always the objects of election when God is the subject. Only God can resolve that.

I'm only trying to be faithful to Scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

God's choosing of one person for ministry-A while another is chosen for ministry-B is according to 1Cor 12 as well as Neh 9.

The fact that Abram is the "Father of the Faithful" in Romans 4 and "inherits the World" according to Romans 4 -- and is seen as our NT example in Heb 11 -- shows the role that Abram plays in God's gospel scenaro.

But that is very different from saying "God is not willing for ANYONE to be excluded from the role Father of the Fathful - but for ALL to be called Father of the Faithful".

In the areas were God selects (Gifts and ministries) God selects just as we see with Abraham and so not ALL are called "Father of the Faithful". No problem

But in the area where God offers to ALL "I will DRAW ALL" He draws ALL.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

I have no problem with Scripture references.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: But in the area where God offers to ALL "I will DRAW ALL" He draws ALL.

HP: Isn’t it amazing how we can massage a passage of Scripture to substantiate our presuppositions when we simply ignore a simple two letter word such as ‘if’ and insert the notion that if God is drawing it must needs always incorporate the gospel message itself?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: I'll be glad to examine that Scripture, for it is the word of God.

HP: Jos 24:15 ¶ And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

TCG: Why not start with Deut 7:7-8: The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt (tniv, emphasis mine).

In Jos 24:15 the people were already God's elect people. They lapsed into idolatry and needed to rid themselves of the gods (v. 14) and return to the One, true God of the Shema.

So Jos 24:15 is of no help to you.

HP: First, why do you tell me that you will examine the Scripture I set forth when in fact you did no such thing? Shifting the focus to yet another issue does not in any way add validity or credence to your statement that you would do something.

Tell us why the verse I mentioned does not do exactly what you say no Scripture in the NT does? You said, “TCGreek: But I've seen no NT Scripture where people are the subject of the verb elect and God as the object.” In the verse I posted above, I believe it does exactly what you seem to believe no Scripture does. The individual is to make God the object of their election or choosing. It does not set forth that God causes or coerces them to choose Him, but to the contrary God calls upon man to 'elect Him.'

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: In Jos 24:15 the people were already God's elect people.

HP: It is a false conclusion to assume that because God chose or elected to pour out His blessing on the children of Israel that such secured their eternal destiny or salvation. Scripture informs us over and over how God’s anger and wrath was poured out upon many Israelites that were disobedient and stiff necked and that refuse to submit to God and His ways. So much so that God said that He even ‘divorced’ them and rejected them as the sole object of His blessings and promises, and turned to the Gentiles to make for Himself a people for His inheritance.

 

[TCGreek]

HP: Jos 24:15 ¶ And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.



HP: First, why do you tell me that you will examine the Scripture I set forth when in fact you did no such thing? Shifting the focus to yet another issue does not in any way add validity or credence to your statement that you would do something.

Tell us why the verse I mentioned does not do exactly what you say no Scripture in the NT does? You said, “TCGreek: But I've seen no NT Scripture where people are the subject of the verb elect and God as the object.” In the verse I posted above, I believe it does exactly what you seem to believe no Scripture does. The individual is to make God the object of their election or choosing. It does not set forth that God causes or coerces them to choose Him, but to the contrary God calls upon man to 'elect Him.'

HP, in the old economy, Jews were born into the covenant of God. As a people they were chosen already of God.

Jos 24:15 is not speaking of the concept of election where a sinner first chooses God. Rather, this is a return to the true and living God--a return to God.

Therefore, it is different than the challenge I proposed.

 

[TCGreek]

HP: It is a false conclusion to assume that because God chose or elected to pour out His blessing on the children of Israel that such secured their eternal destiny or salvation. Scripture informs us over and over how God’s anger and wrath was poured out upon many Israelites that were disobedient and stiff necked and that refuse to submit to God and His ways. So much so that God said that He even ‘divorced’ them and rejected them as the sole object of His blessings and promises, and turned to the Gentiles to make for Himself a people for His inheritance.

I have made no such statement. How can I when Scripture says, "For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel" (Rom 9:6).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCGreek: I have made no such statement. How can I when Scripture says, "For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel" (Rom 9:6).

HP: Then explain to us what you were trying to say with the following comment.

“TCG: In Jos 24:15 the people were already God's elect people. They lapsed into idolatry and needed to rid themselves of the gods (v. 14) and return to the One, true God of the Shema.”

HP: You never once have clearly defined the term ‘election’ as you see it for the list, so do not be disappointed if you feel you are being misunderstood. What does it mean to be one of God’s elect, and can one be elect and still be lost, or can one be of the elect and forfeit that standing due to disobedience and unbelief? If not why not? God in the beginning treated them all that were of Israel with special grace and opportunity did He not, and that in that sense they were all elected by God to receive of His election and grace, yet all did not enter into His rest did they?

 

[TCGreek]

HP: Then explain to us what you were trying to say with the following comment.
HP: You never once have clearly defined the term ‘election’ as you see it for the list, so do not be disappointed if you feel you are being misunderstood. What does it mean to be one of God’s elect, and can one be elect and still be lost, or can one be of the elect and forfeit that standing due to disobedience and unbelief? If not why not? God in the beginning treated them all that were of Israel with special grace and opportunity did He not, and that in that sense they were all elected by God to receive of His election and grace, yet all did not enter into His rest did they?

HP, I see to levels of election in the OT: 1. God chose Israel from among all the nations (Deut 7:7, 8); and 2. God chose a remnant within Israel (Rom 2:28, 29; 9:6).

Election refers to that choosing of God of people as seen in Scripture. Once a person is saved that person can never lose their salvation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCGreek: HP, in the old economy, Jews were born into the covenant of God. As a people they were chosen already of God.

HP: No one disagrees with this that I know of. That is not what is at stake in our discussion. What is at stake concerns the ones that in the end entered into the rest God had for them, and if in fact their own choices played a key role in that outcome. You seem to read into the idea of ‘election’ or being ‘elected’ the notion that God forces them against their will or that their own will plays no part in the outcome of that election when election is thought of in the sense of those that will in the end be saved.

TCGreek: Jos 24:15 is not speaking of the concept of election where a sinner first chooses God. Rather, this is a return to the true and living God--a return to God.

HP: You are reading into the text that which is not supported by the text. Again you confuse the issue with the notion of ‘retuning' to a standing with God they once enjoyed. That is nowhere in the text, nor is it in any way implied by the text. They were to a large part heathen, elected by God to enjoy grace and privilege unknown to all others, yet this does NOT mean that they were in a right relationship with God spiritually at any time in particular due to their election of this grace and privilege, nor does it mean that they ever would be. God had provided the grace and means to make that possible and they were to ELECT to obey and turn to God in obedience for the FIRST time in their lives most likely. They were being commanded to exercise their will in obedience in order to allow Gods election of grace upon them to secure for the first time a right spiritual standing before God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCGReek: HP, I see to levels of election in the OT: 1. God chose Israel from among all the nations (Deut 7:7, 8); and 2. God chose a remnant within Israel (Rom 2:28, 29; 9:6).

Election refers to that choosing of God of people as seen in Scripture. Once a person is saved that person can never lose their salvation.

HP: I completely understand your presupposition of OSAS but you are begging the question at every turn. You are simply assuming it without providing the least evidence that such is the case.

 

[TCGreek]

HP: No one disagrees with this that I know of. That is not what is at stake in our discussion. What is at stake concerns the ones that in the end entered into the rest God had for them, and if in fact their own choices played a key role in that outcome. You seem to read into the idea of ‘election’ or being ‘elected’ the notion that God forces them against their will or that their own will plays no part in the outcome of that election when election is thought of in the sense of those that will in the end be saved.


You are drawing some interesting inferences from what I've written, no doubt, because of your many presuppositions.

Nowhere have I said or implied that God forces people against their will.

I simply take the text as it is, hopefully, without having to add or take away anything.

HP: You are reading into the text that which is not supported by the text. Again you confuse the issue with the notion of ‘retuning' to a standing with God they once enjoyed. That is nowhere in the text, nor is it in any way implied by the text. They were to a large part heathen, elected by God to enjoy grace and privilege unknown to all others, yet this does NOT mean that they were in a right relationship with God spiritually at any time in particular due to their election of this grace and privilege, nor does it mean that they ever would be. God had provided the grace and means to make that possible and they were to ELECT to obey and turn to God in obedience for the FIRST time in their lives most likely. They were being commanded to exercise their will in obedience in order to allow Gods election of grace upon them to secure for the first time a right spiritual standing before God.

HP, God chose Israel and revealed Himself to them. YHWH was with them in a pillar of cloud in the day and a pillar of cloud by night.

How many times haven't we read of Israel being obedient for a season and the whoring after pagan gods? Too numerous to count, I say.