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What is Calvinism? Also.. does God elect those who are to be saved?
- Thread starter TaliOrlando
- Start date
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Come on BR. We all would agree on that, and I believe you know that. The question is, as it always has been with you, has the gospel been presented to all men at all times? That is what is NOT found in Holy Writ period.
Show us the verse that supports your quote in saying,
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Let me post the verse in question to get right to the point.
Joh 12:32 And I, ifI be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh 12:32 And I, ifI be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Well if we "all agreed" that "I will DRAW ALL unto ME" in John 12:32 IS salvific - IS for the purpose of salvation -- then we have the "all-inclusive" drawing of God instead of the "arbitrary selection" model of Calvinism.
And Calvinism is disproven in that one regard.
As we already learned the Salvific process of Romans 10 that reaches out even to the unbelieving Jews includes the "voice of nature" as Paul references it in Romans 10.
And there again we have the failing of Calvinism.
Now "if" we have really all agreed to this by now -- my work here is done.:type:
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness - so must the Son of Man be LIFTED UP" (on the Cross).
John Gill
John 3:14
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=joh&chapter=003&verse=014
even so must the son of man be lifted up;
upon the cross, and die: the crucifixion and death of Christ were necessary, and must be, because of the decrees and purposes of God, by which he was foreordained thereunto, and by which determinate counsel he was delivered, taken, crucified, and slain; and because of his own engagements as a surety, laying himself under obligations in the council and covenant of peace, to suffer, and die, in the room of his people; and because of the prophecies in the Old Testament, and his own predictions, that so it should be; as also, that the antitype might answer the type; and particularly, that he might be a suitable object of faith for wounded sinners, sensible of sin, to look unto.
John Gill
John 12:32
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=joh&chapter=012&verse=032
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth…
The death of Christ is here signified by his being "lifted up from the earth", in allusion to the lifting up of the brazen serpent on the pole; and shows, that his death would not be natural, but violent, and would be public, and not private; and fitly expresses his mediation between God, and men, being lifted up between the heavens and the earth; and points out the death of the cross, as is intimated in the next verse: and the "if" here does not suppose that his death, and the manner of it, were uncertain, for it was determined by God, agreed to by himself, predicted in the Scriptures, signified by types, and foretold by himself, and was necessary for the salvation of his people; but it designs the time of his drawing persons to himself, which is afterwards expressed, and may be rendered, "when I am lifted up", as it is by the Syriac, Arabic, and Persic versions: now when this will be, Christ says,
Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
John 3:14
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/JamiesonFaussetBrown/jfb.cgi?book=joh&chapter=003
14-16. And as Moses, &c.--Here now we have the "heavenly things," as before the "earthly," but under a veil, for the reason mentioned in John 3:12. The crucifixion of Messiah is twice after this veiled under the same lively term--"uplifting," John 8:28, 12:32,33. Here it is still further veiled--though to us who know what it means, rendered vastly more instructive--by reference to the brazen serpent. The venom of the fiery serpents, shooting through the veins of the rebellious Israelites, was spreading death through the camp--lively emblem of the perishing condition of men by reason of sin. In both cases the remedy was divinely provided. In both the way of cure strikingly resembled that of the disease. Stung by serpents, by a serpent they are healed
Christ died on the cross -- no "if's" left there.
In Christ,
Bob
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: How does this verse support your argument that all have heard and have an opportunity to respond to the gospel? Was every man, women, and child given the opportunity to see the serpent? I fail to see the connection.
Certainly Christ was lifted up even as the serpent was 'in a sense,' but what about the ‘if’ in the verse? If it was simply signifying that He would be raised above the earth on a cross, there is no 'if' concerning that. That was a given.
What I believe the passage is referring to is the gospel itself, in that IF it is preached and Christ lifted up before men, those that hear and all that hear will have the opportunity to respond to it’s message. 'IF' all will hear, by Christ being made manifest to them by the preaching of the Word, indeed all men will be drawn to Him, which explains the ‘if.’ There is no certainty that all will hear and respond. It remains an ‘if’ for us to fulfill. We must continually lift up Christ to the whole world by the preaching of the gospel. “IF I be lifted up, I will draw all men to myself.”
Yes BR, there is an 'if' left up to us just as the Scripture indicates there is with the word "IF" remaining before us in the passage in question.
The thought occurred to me that if we were to look into the words ‘be lifted’ that it might just possibly be one of those ‘continuing action verbs’ I hear often about. Would anyone on the list be able to confirm or refute that?
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