What is calvinism?

[skypair]

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Yes -- through the incorruptible seed, the Word of God, 1Pet 1:23. This would mean "hearing" for Word, john, and comprehending which NO embryo can do.

Elizabeth was filled, the scripture does not say John was. Where do you get that from?

At Pentecost, there were physical manifestations of the Spirit as well as spiritual ones. They seemed "drunk." Some spoke in tongues they didn't know.

Elizabeth was regenerate when Mary visited her.

IMPOSSIBLE. Christ had not yet sent the Comforter, john, "who dwelleth WITH you but then shall be IN you, John 14:17. And where do you see the gospel, the prerequiste of faith and regeneration, being preached in Luke 1 (Rom 10:14)?

The woman was born again...[/quote] No, again filled with the Holy Ghost" is what it says -- the power of the Spirit temprarily taking control of her mind, emotions, and will making her speak words that she would not have (same as at Pentecost).

...because she saw the Kingdom of God

She saw Mary, john. To a Catholic that might have been equated with the KoG but not to her or us.

skypair

 

[johnp.]

Yes -- through the incorruptible seed, the Word of God, 1Pet 1:23. This would mean "hearing" for Word, john, and comprehending which NO embryo can do.

God must have been wrong then? Or, how do you know what an unborn child comprehends especially when the Holy Spirit does His stuff, even animals talk?

At Pentecost, there were physical manifestations of the Spirit as well as spiritual ones. They seemed "drunk." Some spoke in tongues they didn't know.

And? Am I not a Christian because the same did not happen to me?

Elizabeth was regenerate when Mary visited her.

IMPOSSIBLE.

What's that, impossible for man and God?

Christ had not yet sent the Comforter...

Christ was there, no more Comforter is needed. The disciples were regenerated when Jesus washed their feet - JN 13:10 Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.".

And where do you see the gospel, the prerequiste of faith and regeneration, being preached in Luke 1 (Rom 10:14)?

Unless a man is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God. Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.....43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
They were saved the same way we are and the same way Noah was. After all, Elijah was a man just like us and he went to Heaven.

And where do you see the gospel, the prerequiste of faith and regeneration, being preached in Luke 1 (Rom 10:14)?

You don't see it? How surprising, Luke one is full of gospel promise. [John]...will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth. Luke 1:14.
Beat that. If you seek the gospel I think you might find it in the OT somewhere if you look.

She saw Mary, john. To a Catholic that might have been equated with the KoG but not to her or us.

She saw the mother of her Lord man. 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Do you want a shot at the question of the day? Why are you not perfect skypair? Is it that you are a wilful sinner or is it because you are not free? One or the other I think.

john.

 

[skypair]

God must have been wrong then? Or, how do you know what an unborn child comprehends especially when the Holy Spirit does His stuff, even animals talk?

Yes, even animals can be made to manifest PHYSICAL response to the Spirit -- but animals are not saved thereby, are they? If you want to apply Calvin's tenet of total inability, you just describe 2 places where his premise would hold true -- infants and animals. But I don't think that was the essence of what he wanted to communicate, do you?

And? Am I not a Christian because the same did not happen to me?

You're not paying attention. Outward physical displays do NOT always and MAY rarely accompany salvation.

Elizabeth was regenerate when Mary visited her.

Quote me the scripture where you see it and I will respond, K?

What's that, impossible for man and God?

When God has a chronology and you attempt to say that God does something before He claims He will, then you have just asserted an impossibility.

Christ was there, no more Comforter is needed. The disciples were regenerated when Jesus washed their feet - JN 13:10 Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.".

Wow! We're going from the weird to the bizzare, aren't we? Washing feet causes the new birth? is the cuase of the "born again" experience of going from dead to new life? Of regeneration? Why do we sprinkle babies heads and not their feet then? :laugh:

Unless a man is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God. Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.....43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Is this the passage? Elizabeth tells us flat out why those things happened to her. The mother of her Lord was visiting. The honor of that captured her mind, emotions, and will, the Spirit causing her and her fetus to emote.

They were saved the same way we are and the same way Noah was.

I have to agree with that to this extent -- she was already a confessed believer the Lord.

After all, Elijah was a man just like us and he went to Heaven.

Now you are back on "Silly Street." Can you PROVE where Elijah went after he went into the clouds? Can you prove he isn't somewhere on the earth to this day -- say the "Garden of Eden?" He went to the "first heaven" alright -- the atmosphere. But where after that?

You don't see it? How surprising, Luke one is full of gospel promise. [John]...will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth. Luke 1:14

The first part was the NAZARITE Covenant -- not the SALVATION covenant, john. The second part stipulates "filled" with the Spirit -- not INDWELT. Even David experienced "filling" when he said, "Take not Thy Spirit from me." But as you can see, the Spirit could leave David. Not so with new covenant believers.

Do you want a shot at the question of the day? Why are you not perfect skypair? Is it that you are a wilful sinner or is it because you are not free?

I am perfect -- I am being perfected -- I will be perfect. It depends on whether you mean now or not and whether you talk about my soul, my spirit, or my body. In any case, I still have sovereignty over my flesh to do wrong without God making me do it. I am free that is. (Willful sinner vs freedom is dealt with in Rom 7:14-25. "Go study to make thyself approved, a workman that needeth not be ashamed."

skypair

 

[johnp.]

I am perfect -- I am being perfected -- I will be perfect.

So part of you is perfect, part of you is under construction and part of you isn't? Then you are 2/3 imperfect. Why can't you choose to be perfect like your Heavenly Father is perfect? You want that don't you? You have free will haven't you?

Wow! We're going from the weird to the bizzare, aren't we? Washing feet causes the new birth?

I said they were regenerated when Jesus washed their feet not that washing the feet regenerated them. They were already clean as you will see from the scripture. They had been washed, they had been sanctified and justified.

Can you PROVE where Elijah went after he went into the clouds?

Silly street? 2KI 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
Silly street to think Elijah just rode around the skies a? You don't think he went to N America do you?

But as you can see, the Spirit could leave David. Not so with new covenant believers.

John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.

Willful sinner vs freedom is dealt with in Rom 7:14-25. "Go study to make thyself approved, a workman that needeth not be ashamed."

I know it, it's in the NT isn't it? Isn't it the place where Paul says he cannot stop doing those things he wants to stop doing and cannot do the things he wants to? Funny that isn't it? What happened to free will then?
If you use Paul as your example then you are admitting a certain lack in free will. If you have free will why are you not perfect skypair? I'm asking you, Paul I know about.

john.

 

[riverwalker]

Before I was saved, I was predestined for hell. To be saved required a decision by me to accept Christ... and after I was saved I was elected for adoption.

I retain my salvation forever by the grace of God, and I am predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son as long as I remain submissive to the Holy Spirit.

John

We've come a long way, haven't we?

:smilewinkgrin:

 

[JesusFan]

What I actually said (and have said) is that Calvinism has certain sine qua non ... irreducible minima that are fundamental to Calvinism. There are things beyond that about which people may disagree and still be Calvinists.

The point is that there is a distinction between what Calvinism teaches and what Calvinists teach.

I think the line is drawn through unconditional election of individuals to salvation. If you believe it, you are a Calvinist. If you deny it, you are an arminian. I think that is pretty typical.

One can disagree on some points and still be a Calvinist. He cannot disagree on unconditional election and still be a Calvinist.

Always thought that the siggle biggest 'difference" between those holding to the cal view of salvation was between those holding to Unlimited/limited atonement of/from the Cross of Christ?