What is considered 'good' and what does God make 'good?'

[Skandelon]

I often here Reformed folks argue that man cannot do anything 'good' as proof for their doctrine of total depravity.

They argue that a response of faith in Christ is 'good' thus it would be impossible for man to do it 'on their own.'

There are two problems with this argument:

1. Since God sent the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin and guide us into all truth, along with the Son, the apostles, the scriptures and the church to carry the gospel it cannot be said that we are ever 'on our own.'

2. Humbling one's self to admit that you are a sinner and need help, would not be considered 'good' by the world's standard. God takes man's humble surrender and credits it as 'good' based on the righteousness of Christ, not the individual responding. "Humble yourself and you will be exalted," scripture teaches. It doesn't teach, as some seem to impose, "God will humble you so as to exalt you."

God takes our filthy rags and credits them to our account as 'righteousness.' And the filthy rags of humble surrender are not made 'on our own,' but in response to the Spirit's powerful appeal for reconciliation and repentance.

​

 

[Christos doulos]

I often here Reformed folks argue that man cannot do anything 'good' as proof for their doctrine of total depravity.

They argue that a response of faith in Christ is 'good' thus it would be impossible for man to do it 'on their own.'

2. Humbling one's self to admit that you are a sinner and need help, would not be considered 'good' by the world's standard. God takes man's humble surrender and credits it as 'good' based............

My friend. "Good" is the standard of God's righteousness (10 commandments)

 

[Christos doulos]

I often here Reformed folks argue that man cannot do anything 'good' as proof for their doctrine of total depravity.

They argue that a response of faith in Christ is 'good' thus it would be impossible for man to do it 'on their own.................

My friend. Sin permeates throughout unregenerate man, in that even when he or she do "good" deeds; our deeds are tainted with sin. Try and do a good deed without being self congratulatory. It is impossible.

Social evolutionists claim they can do good without God, when asked? they say, they do good things for others in order that others will do good back to them. Not exactly selfless

Unregenerate man cannot do good in the eyes of God

 

[Iconoclast]

My friend. Sin permeates throughout unregenerate man, in that even when he or she do "good" deeds; our deeds are tainted with sin. Try and do a good deed without being self congratulatory. It is impossible.

Social evolutionists claim they can do good without God, when asked? they say, they do good things for others in order that others will do good back to them. Not exactly selfless

Unregenerate man cannot do good in the eyes of God

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Skandelon]

My friend. Sin permeates throughout unregenerate man, in that even when he or she do "good" deeds; our deeds are tainted with sin...

And? Didn't I acknowledge that above? Are you saying humble surrender and admission of this truth that we are complete sinners is a 'good deed?' And even if you call it 'good' is it really done 'own our own' if its in response to a powerful appeal of the Holy Spirit?

I'm just wondering on what basis do Reformed believers refer to humble confession of our depravity as being a 'good deed' that is boast worthy? How many people do you know going around boasting about how sinful they are and how much they need help?

Unregenerate man cannot do good in the eyes of God

I already know that is your belief, but now we are debating that point, so an argument in support of this claim would be appreciated. I'm not sure what you have said addressed our point of contention.

 

[Christos doulos]

Are you saying humble surrender and admission of this truth that we are complete sinners is a 'good deed?'

That's a bit of a loaded question. I would say, it is a result of salvation. A person who humbles his or herself has died to self, recognize they are undone and nothing without Christ. This is not an overnight process. This is an ongoing process.

The only reason it is good, is because Christ now resides and is working in the believer. We have the righteousness of Christ.

I already know that is your belief, but now we are debating that point, so an argument in support of this claim would be appreciated. I'm not sure what you have said addressed our point of contention.

My friend. What really is your argument? Do you believe unregenerate man can do good in the eyes of God?

 

[Skandelon]

That's a bit of a loaded question. I would say, it is a result of salvation. A person who humbles his or herself has died to self, recognize they are undone and nothing without Christ. This is not an overnight process. This is an ongoing process.

So, someone can be saved prior to humble repentance? Sound like you have the cart before the horse considering that scripture calls men to faith and repentance in order to be saved.

My friend. What really is your argument? Do you believe unregenerate man can do good in the eyes of God?

That is my question: What is considered "Good" and what does God credit as "Good?" My argument is that God takes our little mustard seed of faith, our humble admission that we are nothing, our cry, our filthy rag, and credits to our account as righteousness. NOT as if that deed is righteous, but on the basis of Christ's righteousness. AND that even that response is not done 'on our own' but in response to the Holy Spirit's powerful gospel appeal.

So, my argument is two fold:
1. Our response is only good because God makes it good.
and
2. Our response is not done 'on our own' but in response to God's gracious and powerful appeal.

 

[Christos doulos]

So, someone can be saved prior to humble repentance? Sound like you have the cart before the horse considering that scripture calls men to faith and repentance in order to be saved.

My friend. (smiles) I believe from looking at scripture that regeneration comes before repentance. I agree that scripture calls men to repent and believe in order to be saved, but belief and repentance is evidence that one is saved. It is not a work or a "deed"

That is reformed teaching my friend.

That is my question: What is considered "Good" and what does God credit as "Good?"

So, my argument is two fold:
1. Our response is only good because God makes it good.
and
2. Our response is not done 'on our own' but in response to God's gracious and powerful appeal.

My friend. No argument from me, nor do I see anything that conflicts with reformed teaching. I think you have more in common with reformed teaching then you know.

 

[Skandelon]

My friend. (smiles) I believe regeneration comes before repentance. I agree that scripture calls men to repent and believe in order to be saved, but belief and repentance is evidence that one is saved. It is not a work or a "deed"

That is reformed teaching my friend.

I know, and obviously I disagree with it. But, for future reference you may not want to say, "it is a result of salvation," but instead you should say, "it is a result of regeneration." Because it is a contradiction to say that 'scripture calls men to repent and believe in order to be saved, but belief and repentance is evidence that one is saved." Just change the last word to 'regenerated," and you won't have this contradiction. Otherwise you imply that one can be saved apart from faith and repentance, which is clearly unbiblical.

My friend. No argument from me, nor do I see anything that conflicts with reformed teaching. I think you have more in common with reformed teaching then you know.

Arminianism is very similar to Calvinism, but I think the point of contention centers around what some people deem as "good" and thus assume is unable to be done.

 

[Christos doulos]

I know, and obviously I disagree with it. But, for future reference you may not want to say, "it is a result of salvation," but instead you should say, "it is a result of regeneration." Because it is a contradiction to say that 'scripture calls men to repent and believe in order to be saved, but belief and repentance is evidence that one is saved."

My friend. It only contradicts your interpretation of scripture; not mine.

Just change the last word to 'regenerated," and you won't have this contradiction. Otherwise you imply that one can be saved apart from faith and repentance, which is clearly unbiblical.

My friend. I never said nor implied you can be saved apart from faith and repentance. That is your interpretation of what I said. Repentance is a response.

The reformation began against the Catholic church's system of works. A reformer gets very uneasy when he or she hear "works". and for us to go back on our theology; admitting repentance IS a work will undermine the sacrifices of all the reformed fathers, admitting the possibility the Catholic Church was right about working our way into heaven, and us having to reevaluate reformed teachings

Arminianism is very similar to Calvinism, but I think the point of contention centers around what some people deem as "good" and thus assume is unable to be done.

Good is God's standard of righteousness. Don't you agree? Can you keep the commandments?

 

[Skandelon]

My friend. It only contradicts your interpretation of scripture; not mine.

Actually even some reformed scholars would be careful to draw a distinction between regeneration and salvation. You seemed to use the words interchangeably thus causing unnecessary confusion. I know Reformers believe that those who are regenerated will certainly come to faith and be saved, but to suggest that one may be saved apart from faith and repentance is not even supported by Reformed tradition.

One Calvinist put it this way, "Election is unconditional, not salvation. Regeneration is monergistic, not salvation."

My friend. I never said nor implied you can be saved apart from faith and repentance. That is your interpretation of what I said. Repentance is a response.

A response to what? Regeneration or salvation? That is my point. You used those term interchangeably.

Good is God's standard of righteousness. Don't you agree? Can you keep the commandments?

Read Romans 3:19-21 and notice the two standards of righteousness that Paul presents. Proving righteousness through law is unattainable doesn't prove that righteousness through faith in Christ's imputed righteousness is equally unattainable.

 

[kyredneck]

...One Calvinist put it this way, "Election is unconditional, not salvation. Regeneration is monergistic, not salvation.".....
.

A Primitive Baptist could have said that. The birth from above is totally of God, i.e., man totally passive.

Profession to enter into the kingdom is the elect's duty.

 

[MB]

A Primitive Baptist could have said that. The birth from above is totally of God, i.e., man totally passive.

Profession to enter into the kingdom is the elect's duty.

I wonder could you show me even one gentile who was elect in the Bible?
MB

 

[Christos doulos]

I wonder could you show me even one gentile who was elect in the Bible?
MB

(2 John 1:1)
"The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all who know the truth,"

 

[preacher4truth]

I wonder could you show me even one gentile who was elect in the Bible?
MB

I can show you more than one; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, and those at Corinth; 1 Corinthians 1:27, 28, and to the Colossians; Colossians 3:12, and also in Titus 1:1, and also referenced here, Paul being the Apostle to the Gentiles, that they, the Gentiles again are elect; 2 Timothy 2:8-10, and he also in reference to those at Ephesus calls them elect; Ephesians 1:4...each of these being Gentiles.

:wavey:

 

[Aaron]

I wonder could you show me even one gentile who was elect in the Bible?
MB

:laugh: You walked into that one standing straight up. :laugh:

 

[Aaron]

Don't forget Ruth.

 

[Aaron]

Or Abraham.

 

[MB]

(2 John 1:1)
"The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all who know the truth,"

John was not an apostel to the gentiles nor was this lady ever described as a gentile.
MB

 

[DHK]

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Jesus said to the Pharisees that they were evil, but could do good (giving good gifts to their children). He used it as a comparison to how our Father will give good things to us who will ask him.

Is a nursing mother doing "bad" by nourishing her infant?
Is not that a "good thing"?