What is considered 'good' and what does God make 'good?'

[quantumfaith]

I am so thankful for the scripture:

But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

I Samuel 16:7

 

[Skandelon]

I am so thankful for the scripture:

But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

I Samuel 16:7

I wonder why He needs to look at their heart since he is the one who irresistibly made it what it is? Shouldn't that say, "Man looks at the outward appearance, by the Lord irresistibly changes bad hearts and makes them good???"

 

[quantumfaith]

I wonder why He needs to look at their heart since he is the one who irresistibly made it what it is? Shouldn't that say, "Man looks at the outward appearance, by the Lord irresistibly changes bad hearts and makes them good???"

I think since he made it and knows each of intimately, sees and knows things in our heart that others cannot and will not see.

 

[Christos doulos]

John was not an apostel to the gentiles nor was this lady ever described as a gentile.
MB

My friend. (smiles) I already knew what you were going to say.

My friend. Believe what you want, but he was referring to a Christian, and called her, "elect". That is what I know, because that is what I see in the bible.

 

[webdog]

My friend. (smiles) I already knew what you were going to say.

My friend. Believe what you want, but he was referring to a Christian, and called her, "elect". That is what I know, because that is what I see in the bible.

Curious, if you knew that was an incorrect answer to the question posed, why did you give it? MB asked for gentiles who are being referred to as the "elect". The answer is there are none (and tell Aaron Ruth and Abraham are not gentiles).

 

[preacher4truth]

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Jesus said to the Pharisees that they were evil, but could do good (giving good gifts to their children). He used it as a comparison to how our Father will give good things to us who will ask him.

Is a nursing mother doing "bad" by nourishing her infant?
Is not that a "good thing"?

He didn't say they did good, he said the gifts were good, not the givers.

 

[Amy.G]

(and tell Aaron Ruth and Abraham are not gentiles).

Actually, they were both Gentiles. Abraham was raised in a pagan home and Ruth was a Moabite.

 

[preacher4truth]

(and tell Aaron Ruth and Abraham are not gentiles).

Uh, yeah they were actually. :wavey:

But there are more passages showing Gentiles are in fact chosen before the foundation of the world.

 

[kyredneck]

I wonder could you show me even one gentile who was elect in the Bible?
MB

Sure:

3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.
5 Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.
6 Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Selah Ps 87

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. Gal 4

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10:16

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth. Rev 5

 

[Amy.G]

Also the church at Colosse was a mixture of Jews and Gentiles, as were the churches at Thessalonica and Corinth.

 

[DHK]

He didn't say they did good, he said the gifts were good, not the givers.

So a nursing mother nourishing her own infant isn't good??

 

[psalms109:31]

Luke 3 :
34 the son of Jacob,

the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham,

the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,

35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu,

the son of Peleg, the son of Eber,

the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan,

the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem,

the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,

37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,

the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,

the son of Kenan, 38 the son of Enosh,

the son of Seth, the son of Adam,

the son of God.

Exodus 12:
48 “A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the LORD’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it. 49 The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”

God has always provided a way for non-elect to enter into the covenant. To be included with the elect when they hear the gospel of their salvation having believed.

Genesis 15:6

6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

 

[Christos doulos]

Curious, if you knew that was an incorrect answer to the question posed, why did you give it? MB asked for gentiles who are being referred to as the "elect". The answer is there are none (and tell Aaron Ruth and Abraham are not gentiles).

My friend. I did not say, I knew it was an incorrect answer. I said, I knew he would say what he said.

Presupposition is a powerful thing. It wouldn't matter if "elect" was all through the NT referring only to gentiles. People will always find an explaination other than the one they don't like.

There being none Gentiles being labeled as "elect" is not a strong argument. Didn't say, you didn't have one, just not a strong one

 

[webdog]

My friend. I did not say, I knew it was an incorrect answer. I said, I knew he would say what he said.

Presupposition is a powerful thing. It wouldn't matter if "elect" was all through the NT referring only to gentiles. People will always find an explaination other than the one they don't like.

There being none Gentiles being labeled as "elect" is not a strong argument. Didn't say, you didn't have one, just not a strong one

1. It matters who the elect are. If passages of Scripture are being misapplied, its important.

2. Who is using a faulty presupposition? Using a random quote where John is addressing an elect lady as proof shes a gentile was just that

3. Saying an argument is not strong doesn't make it true.

 

[Christos doulos]

1. It matters who the elect are. If passages of Scripture are being misapplied, its important.

My friend. I am not misapplying scripture. I am misapplying how you want me to apply scripture

2. Who is using a faulty presupposition? Using a random quote where John is addressing an elect lady as proof shes a gentile was just that

My friend. I never said you used a "faulty" presupposition. I said, presupposition is a powerful thing. As far as it being a random quote? I don't think so.

3. Saying an argument is not strong doesn't make it true.

My friend. I never said that, you said that.

 

[webdog]

My friend. I am not misapplying scripture. I am misapplying how you want me to apply scripture

it is my desire we all apply it the way it was intended.

My friend. I never said you used a "faulty" presupposition. I said, presupposition is a powerful thing. As far as it being a random quote? I don't think so.

so then you do believe John was addressing a gentile

My friend. I never said that, you said that.

actually you said just that. Go back and re-read what you edited in.

 

[Christos doulos]

it is my desire we all apply it the way it was intended..

No argument from me my friend

so then you do believe John was addressing a gentile

My friend. I believe John was addressing a Christian who is part of the body of Christ.

actually you said just that. Go back and re-read what you edited in.

Let's see what I said,

There being none Gentiles being labeled as "elect" is not a strong argument. Didn't say, you didn't have one, just not a strong one

My friend. I don't see anywhere in my statement where I said, your argument was untrue

 

[preacher4truth]

So a nursing mother nourishing her own infant isn't good??

Correct. Two sinners engaged in a natural act.

Now, off of your rabbit trail, did He say they were good, or was it their gifts that He said were good?

 

[preacher4truth]

There are several passages calling Gentiles elect:


1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, and those at Corinth; 1 Corinthians 1:27, 28, and to the Colossians; Colossians 3:12, and also in Titus 1:1, and also referenced here, Paul being the Apostle to the Gentiles, that they, the Gentiles again are elect; 2 Timothy 2:8-10, and he also in reference to those at Ephesus calls them elect; Ephesians 1:4...each of these being Gentiles.

Interesting that others keep asking for proof still as if they don't exist when it's been proven that they do. They're willfully "uninformed." :smilewinkgrin:

:laugh: :wavey:

 

[Winman]

Calvinism turns words topsy-turvy. According to Calvinism, you can tell the truth and it would still be a sin, because your motive is wrong. If this were so, all of God's commands would be meaningless. If it is a sin for an unregenerate man to tell the truth, then why command him against lying? If everything the unregenerate man does is sin, why would laws or commandments be necessary at all?

Jesus himself said sinners can do good.

Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Jesus did not say sinners are unable to do good, he said they "know how" to give good gifts to their children. Verse 9 shows the motive, it is understood the son is hungry, therefore the man is giving him bread to nourish him. Every decent parent would give food to their children and oftentimes strangers if they were hungry.

To say something is evil because there is self-interest involved is a fallacy. Even Christians desire God to be pleased with them, this is self interest, it is selfish. It is not wrong to want God to be pleased with you, and we are told to work to earn rewards. Is that not selfish?

It is when something is purely selfish it is wrong. If you give food to strangers only so you can tell yourself you are a good person, this would be wrong. But if you gave food to a stranger because you were sincerely concerned for their health, this is not wrong whatsoever.

Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.


Jesus is not saying everything sinners do is evil, he is simply saying it is not that which would merit reward. Everyone loves persons who love them, everyone does good to those that do good to them. It is not evil, but it is nothing very special either.

But note in verse 35 when Jesus says it is far better to love and give to those who hate you, he promises a reward. This is self-interest, it is a selfish motive to a degree.

But again, Jesus is not saying the unregenerate cannot do good. When you tell the truth, that is good, it is not evil. Lying is evil. If a mother feeds her child, that is good, it is not evil.

And we see unregenerate men doing very unselfish deeds. A person rushes into a burning house to rescue a child heard screaming, a soldier leaps on a hand grenade to save his friends in the foxhole. Regardless of motive, these are good deeds.

When the scriptures say there is none good, no, not one, it is speaking of being 100% good, without any sin whatsoever. There is only one person who did this, Jesus Christ. The rest of us have "come short"

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

This verse is not saying man cannot do good, it is saying all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God. To attain the glory of God you would have to be perfectly sinless, which no man but Jesus has or will ever do. But it is not saying we cannot do good. It is like shooting an arrow at a target. Your arrow flies a distance, but it falls short of the target. That does not mean your arrow did not leave your bow.

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

This verse is speaking of a lost person who "in his sin" that he hath sinned, "in them" he shall die. So this is a lost person. But God himself says this man has "done" righteousness. Man can do true good that is recognized by God. But if you sin even one time in all of your life, then you have come short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death, and you must pay that penalty.