What is "Death"??

[Derf B]

What does magic require when it brings something into existence that does not exist?

You mean like when God made the world out of nothing?

But we were talking about doctrine, and bringing a doctrine into existence is not the same as bringing a physical thing into existence. It merely requires imagination, not occultism.


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[Derf B]

Show me a place where the spirit and soul act separately? If our "spirit" goes to be with the Lord, so does our soul. If our spirit goes to Hades, so does our soul. The three part belief system is mistaken.

Did Solomon’s spirit go to heaven, while Abraham’s soul was in Hades?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


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[37818]

Moses was talking about what would happen to the nation of Israel. It might also be applicable to hellfire, but that’s not the context of the passage.

The passage refers to a fire in the lowest Sheol. Deuteronomy 32:22, " For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, . . ." Otherwise what Abraham said, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. . . ." would be to none existent writings. David as one of the prophets, Psalms 86:13, ". . . thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell." Remember the rich man had to look up, he was in a lower Hades, Luke 16:23, "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, . . ." Deuteronomy 32:22 is the key reference to the account given by Jesus about what Abraham said.

 

[Derf B]

The passage refers to a fire in the lowest Sheol. Deuteronomy 32:22, " For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, . . ." Deuteronomy 32:22 is the key reference to the account given by Jesus about what Abraham said.

Yes, but your ellipsis removed the important context: and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

That’s not all Sheol, is it?


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[Van]

Did Solomon’s spirit go to heaven, while Abraham’s soul was in Hades?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

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No, no one went to heaven (the abode of God) but at least one person was caught up in the clouds. Ecclesiastes 12:7 is understood in various ways. One of them "...for the life breath shall return to God who gave it. Here to assume our human soul/spirit is in view is precluded because no one entered the abode of God before Christ died on the cross.

 

[Van]

1) The standard narrative is that when we physically die, our spirit/soul goes either to Hades or if we have been saved, to be present with the Lord.
2) The standard narrative is that Hades is the temporary holding place where the soul/spirits of the lost are kept until the resurrection of the dead.
3) The standard narrative is that prior to the Great White Throne judgment, all the unsaved are resurrected (the resurrection of the dead), with their spirit/souls being united with their physical bodies, such that they stand before the judgement seat. Then all the unsaved are cast into the Lake of Fire where both the body and soul can be destroyed.

No need to muddy those waters.

 

[timtofly]

You mean like when God made the world out of nothing?

But we were talking about doctrine, and bringing a doctrine into existence is not the same as bringing a physical thing into existence. It merely requires imagination, not occultism.


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You are free to conjure. I prefer the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[timtofly]

Did Solomon’s spirit go to heaven, while Abraham’s soul was in Hades?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


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I am sure that is a tad pagan philosophy. The pagans deny that Adam died spiritually. They embrace spiritualism.

Spiritualism:

1. a system of belief or religious practice based on supposed communication with the spirits of the dead, especially through mediums.
   
   
2. 2.
   PHILOSOPHY
   the doctrine that the spirit exists as distinct from matter, or that spirit is the only reality.

The only biblical "spirits" that can be communicated with are demons.

When the witch brought forth Samuel for Saul it was his actual soul or ghost.

Ghost:
an apparition of a dead person which is believed to appear or become manifest to the living, typically as a nebulous image.

Nebulous just means cloudy, used to just make stuff up, because it may not actually be the one conjured. It was definitely Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:10-20

10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day.
19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

Even what Samuel said as a ghost happened to Saul. Spiritualism does not bring actual ghost from the dead. God did that to prove to Saul, that he was being disobedient. Spiritualism claims it can do things with spirits, but they are just demons. Samuel is still waiting for his spirit, robe of white, glorified body, restored form of a son of God. All OT and NT believers are under the alter, in Paradise waiting for the 5th seal to be opened.

The verse in Ecclesiastes is not a true fact, because all spirits were always with God from conception. The Holy Spirit was given as a seal instead of us having our spirit with us.

Now if you want to believe a strict point of distinction between the NT and OT saints, And say OT saints had glorified bodies, I doubt any one could prove you wrong. You cannot use the OT to describe the church age though, in that regard.

 

[timtofly]

Did Solomon’s spirit go to heaven, while Abraham’s soul was in Hades?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

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If you read the 1 Samuel 28 passage above, it says that gods walked up from the depths of the earth. Verse 13:

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

Samuel, Saul, David, and Solomon, all the same time period.

 

[timtofly]

1) The standard narrative is that when we physically die, our spirit/soul goes either to Hades or if we have been saved, to be present with the Lord.
2) The standard narrative is that Hades is the temporary holding place where the soul/spirits of the lost are kept until the resurrection of the dead.
3) The standard narrative is that prior to the Great White Throne judgment, all the unsaved are resurrected (the resurrection of the dead), with their spirit/souls being united with their physical bodies, such that they stand before the judgement seat. Then all the unsaved are cast into the Lake of Fire where both the body and soul can be destroyed.

No need to muddy those waters.

No need whatsoever, with the Standard view they are so muddy, no more mud will fit.

 

[Derf B]

If you read the 1 Samuel 28 passage above, it says that gods walked up from the depths of the earth. Verse 13:

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

Samuel, Saul, David, and Solomon, all the same time period.

That’s a fascinating story! But if Samuel was buried, then the “gods” (angels, probably), might also have been raising his physical body. It never says it was a spirit or ghost, it was just “Samuel”.

 

[Derf B]

No, no one went to heaven (the abode of God) but at least one person was caught up in the clouds. Ecclesiastes 12:7 is understood in various ways. One of them "...for the life breath shall return to God who gave it. Here to assume our human soul/spirit is in view is precluded because no one entered the abode of God before Christ died on the cross.

I think that’s worth considering. I was just finding a verse that was inconsistent with the spirit and soul being the same. If the spirit is the life breath, and the soul is the inner person, I don’t see that they need to be the same thing. But I can see your point that they seem to be referred to in similar ways.

I guess you’re not so bound to the standard narratives as you let on, since he standard narrative usually includes the tripartite self.

 

[timtofly]

That’s a fascinating story! But if Samuel was buried, then the “gods” (angels, probably), might also have been raising his physical body. It never says it was a spirit or ghost, it was just “Samuel”.

Never heard of a dead body walking through the walls of a cave trying to tunnel down into the earth. Angels are not gods. Humans are the only known sons of God. Seems most emperors of the OT period made sure they were viewed as gods. The witch would have been well versed in knowing who a god was. Beyond my pay grade to figure out.

All I know is this body has to die, so a new one can be given. Perhaps some are very fond of this current model? Not me. Posting this while listening to the grand ole opry, Keb' Mo' and Brad Paisley singing, "Will the circle be unbroken?"

 

[Van]

I think that’s worth considering. I was just finding a verse that was inconsistent with the spirit and soul being the same. If the spirit is the life breath, and the soul is the inner person, I don’t see that they need to be the same thing. But I can see your point that they seem to be referred to in similar ways.

I guess you’re not so bound to the standard narratives as you let on, since he standard narrative usually includes the tripartite self.

The Hebrew word translated "spirit" in Ecc. 12:7 has a range of meanings, and here the context suggests the meaning is "life breath" and life is given by Gold. But certainly another in its range of meanings refers to spirit, i.e. our human spirit/soul.
I like to think I am bound by scripture.

 

[37818]

Yes, but your ellipsis removed the important context: and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

That’s not all Sheol, is it?

First, the eliipsis tell you there is more content. Second, that content speaks of going outside the bounds of Sheol, ". . . and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. . . ." The "and shall consume the earth with her increase" has not yet happened in a totality. So the "and set the fire of the foundations of the mountians," is typically understood to be the volcanic attivity of our earth where at times and at places does "consume the earth with her increase."

 

[Derf B]

And the rest of the context? You have to go back to vs 9 to find out who He is talking to.
Deuteronomy 32:9 (KJV) For the LORD'S portion [is] his people; Jacob [is] the lot of his inheritance.

Are you saying God’s people will suffer in the fires of Hades?

 

[Derf B]

Never heard of a dead body walking through the walls of a cave trying to tunnel down into the earth. Angels are not gods. Humans are the only known sons of God. Seems most emperors of the OT period made sure they were viewed as gods. The witch would have been well versed in knowing who a god was. Beyond my pay grade to figure out.

All I know is this body has to die, so a new one can be given. Perhaps some are very fond of this current model? Not me. Posting this while listening to the grand ole opry, Keb' Mo' and Brad Paisley singing, "Will the circle be unbroken?"

The witch said she saw “gods”, or elohim ascending out of the earth. Then the pronoun switches to singular and they talk about Samuel. I think the elohim were either God or angels that raised Samuel in some form, possibly as a temporary resurrection. There may be a distinction between the elohim and the Samuel figure. It never says it was Samuel’s soul.

Sons of God is used in Job, seemingly speaking of angels.

 

[Derf B]

@37818 this was for you, sorry about losing the quote in my response.

And the rest of the context? You have to go back to vs 9 to find out who He is talking to.
Deuteronomy 32:9 (KJV) For the LORD'S portion [is] his people; Jacob [is] the lot of his inheritance.

Are you saying God’s people will suffer in the fires of Hades?

 

[37818]

@37818 this was for you, sorry about losing the quote in my response.

Deuteronomy 32:22 was not saying all of Israel was going there. But those, Deuteronomy 32:17, "They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; . . ." So we know the reason the lower Sheol was given its fire.

 

[Derf B]

Deuteronomy 32:22 was not say all of Israel. But those, Deuteronomy 32:17, "They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; . . ." So we know the reason the lower Sheol was give its fire.

Not just lower Sheol—“and shall consume the earth with her increase,“—her increase is the produce of the land. That’s what I was pointing out—it’s not just Sheol that’s being talked about here. But if the punishment for those that sacrifice to devils includes the whole land getting torched, then it’s happening to all of “Jacob”, “His people” according to vs 9.

My point is that this verse is not talking about after-life punishment, but national punishment.


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