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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Of course.
That happens all the time...
This forum is proof of that.
However, if that pattern persists, then eventually we'll have to go our separate ways...
For truly, unless two be agreed, can they walk together ( Amos 3:3 )?
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Perhaps.
But there are complications, Derf...
Not everyone who claims to be Christ's, really is ( Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 13 ).
So, ( and this isn't meant to scare you, but when I first read about it in the Bible, it did make me very sober ) one or both isn't who they say they are.
There is a such thing as "wheat" and "tares" ( Matthew 13 ), false teachers ( 2 Peter 2 ) and true ones.
Also, in the case that they both are who they say they are, one believer may be mature in their studies, and one may not.
One may only be ready for "milk", and one "meat".
One may have been in Christ for 50 years, and another for only 5.
Side note:
One can have read through the Bible 100 times and know far more and understand it far better than someone who's only read through it once or twice.
That's reality, and that reality does not make the one who does study it, any better in God's eyes than the one who does not.
To the contrary, it makes the person who does study it more, the other brother's servant and helper.
That's what being an elder is...
To serve the body, not to lord it over their brothers and sisters, ridiculing them for not "keeping up", or otherwise seeking to be better than them in their own eyes.
The body of Christ has no room for personal pride, especially in the light of His mercy and grace towards us as His people.
Back to the subject above:
Not only can believers be dull in their "hearing" ( Hebrews 5:11-12 ), we can and often do suffer from not studying His words enough.
God's word changes our thinking as believers, Derf...
But it cannot change what it is not exposed to and even when it does, that change takes time.
So, we as believers need to study it all the time in order to grow in our knowledge of it.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I'm only describing how I understand it.
As far as I know, there is no "secret understanding" to God's word, at least for those who are saved...
But to those who are outside the body of Christ, it makes no sense to them and never will.
I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but that is the reality of the Bible versus other books.
The Bible is not written by men to other men...
It is written by God who uses men, to His children.
The words are spiritual ( John 6:63 ), and the Bible is a book intended for those who have the Holy Spirit in them ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 )...
Those that have "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15 ) and those who are "of God" ( John 8:43-47 ).
The "whosoever believeth".
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Question?
Acts 2:31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again (resurrection) of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
soul not left to Hades
body of flesh did not see corruption
Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die
But someone will say, “How are the dead (? Souls, Larry, Curly, and Mo ?) raised up? And with what body do they (Larry, Curly and Mo) come?” 1 Cor 15:35
Are these dead souls that are raised in a body? In a house not made with hands?
He did not say it wasn't either yet he did say that David was speaking of the fruit of his loins and not himself when he said thou will not leave mt soul to Hades.
What does that leave us to believe concerning the soul of David?
Perhaps you didn’t mean it quit like you wrote, but in fact it wasn’t “written” by God at all, except a few select portions (like the 10 commandments, and the handwriting on the wall). It was written by men to other men, though inspired by God.
And it wasn’t always written to God’s children, in the sense of being His elect, since much of the prophecies were written to other nations, telling them of the wrath that was going to happen to them. The book of Nahum comes to mind.
And even of my two examples of God’s doing the writing Himself, the second (handwriting on the wall), was specifically written to the un-elect king of Babylon, who was about to experience God’s wrath/retribution.
We also have numerous modern examples of unbelievers coming to salvation through reading the Bible, so even in those cases , it was written, apparently, for those who were not yet children of God
Maybe I can help @timtofly out here. If Peter describes David’s words as speaking about the resurrection, and David wasn’t yet resurrected at the time of Peter’s message, then his soul was still “left to Hades”.
I have another point to add. Paul explains to the Thessalonians that they needn’t worry about there loved ones who have already died, because they will be resurrected before we who are alive and remain, but they haven’t yet been.
The interesting thing is the part where he says to “comfort one another with these words” 1Thess 4:18.
Today it is common, when comforting a fellow believer who had lost a loved one, to say, “They are in heaven with Jesus.” Paul didn’t offer this as a comfort but instead pointed to the resurrection, as if they weren’t already in heaven or with Jesus.
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The interesting thing is the part where he says to “comfort one another with these words” 1Thess 4:18.
Today it is common, when comforting a fellow believer who had lost a loved one, to say, “They are in heaven with Jesus.” Paul didn’t offer this as a comfort but instead pointed to the resurrection, as if they weren’t already in heaven or with Jesus.
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timtofly
Well-Known Member
It is Luke telling us what Peter said. Luke says Peter was full of the Holy Spirit. This means every word Peter was saying was of God. It also means that if Peter said his own thoughts in the middle of God’s thoughts, it would be hard for us 1900 years later to decide just on a few verses.
That is why we compare Scripture to other Scripture. Peter was contrasting what David said who was also writing in Holy Spirit inspiration with what Jesus did on the Cross, and the resurrection. 3 inspired authors on one subject, what could go wrong? We know Luke was not going to correct Peter, probably because he may not have had all the facts to verify the words of Peter. In fact at the Beginning of Luke, Luke explained he did the most thorough research he could. Not that Luke was not inspired, but Luke used research in his two books. Luke 1:3-4
3 Therefore, Your Excellency, since I have carefully investigated all these things from the beginning, it seemed good to me that I too should write you an accurate and ordered narrative, 4 so that you might know how well-founded are the things about which you have been taught.
Act 1:1. In the first book, I wrote about everything Yeshua set out to do and teach,
David had not ascended to heaven at the time David wrote, but he said. Psalms 86:10-13
10 For you are great, and you do wonders;
you alone are God.
11 Adonai, teach me your way,
so that I can live by your truth;
make me single-hearted,
so that I can fear your name.
12 I will thank you, Adonai my God,
with my whole heart;
and I will glorify your name forever.
13 For your grace toward me is so great!
You have rescued me from the lowest part of Sh’ol.
Psalms 16:7-11
7I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.
8I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
If anything Peter was trying to apply what David said in Psalms to Jesus Christ. But that does not mean Peter had the right to say David was wrong. Peter was ok in explaining an OT promise, but in doing so he took away David's own promise. God did not correct Peter, or Peter never retracted. Luke left the words as they were without explaining. Yet Today, if any change Scripture one iota, they are considered wrong. So should Peter be corrected? If Peter was wrong should we keep up being wrong? If Peter was correct, then David had no hope.
Sounds to me like an error in a sermon illustration, but God never corrected Peter's sermon illustration. We do not need to correct it, but neither do we need to think God inspired Peter to make a mistake.
The Atonement was made to bring those in death, out of death. Matthew did record those saints coming out of their graves. They were not left in sheol. Matthew 27:52-53
52 And the graves did open themselves, and many bodies of the Saints, which slept, arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
What is the point of raising bodies, just to send them back into sheol. The Atonement was a restoration of Adam's disobedience. It did allow humanity back into the Garden/Paradise. They all did ascend with Christ that Sunday to Paradise. Did David ascend when David died? No. Did David go to sheol when he died, Yes, Abraham’s Bosom. Is David still there? No. Is David's tomb still in Jerusalem? Is it empty?
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Only if time stopped at that point. God is still working, and there is still a resurrection to come. David’s hope is still alive, even if David is still “dead and buried” as Peter said.
“Many bodies of the saints arose”, but not all. Peter tells us David was not one of those.
I appreciate this question, in 2 ways.
1. Because you point out it was bodies that were raised, and bodies that would go back into Sheol, if nothing else happened to them afterwards. I don’t know what happened to these saints, so I can’t say definitively, but I think they probably died again. I don’t think they went back into a state of consciousness in Sheol.
2. Because I have the same question on a higher level. If some wicked people are already experiencing pain/torment in Hades right now, why would they need to be resurrected, judged, and sent into more torment at the GWT judgment?
David was not one of those resurrected. Heb 11 tells us that, even if you don’t believe Peter. Hebrews 11:39-40 (KJV) 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
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timtofly
Well-Known Member
But that is not what Peter said. It was an illustration. Peter said it was Jesus that David was talking about. It was Jesus that Peter said did what David prophecied. Compare that with Paul in Athens and the unknown god. God was not that unknown god. Paul just used that to involve the Athenians into a conversation.
Peter's point was not that David did not, nor could not leave sheol, and enter heaven. It was that Jesus did. Peter was not denying David’s resurrection. He was pointing out that when David died hundreds of years earlier it did not happen. Peter never in all his writings even claimed a resurrection for humans. The only resurrection he ever mentioned was about Jesus. If you base a resurrection for any humans on Peter, it will never happen. Yet the Sanhedrin complained about his resurrection teaching. Yet we know from other NT authors, bodily resurrection is possible. The when is not made distinct other than in the last day. Even John in the book of Revelation says there is a first Resurrection. This one has not happened yet. David in the Psalms said there would be a resurrection for him. It already happened, because Matthew said it did, when Jesus died on the cross.
Hebrews 11:39-40
39 All of these had their merit attested because of their trusting. Nevertheless, they did not receive what had been promised,
40 because God had planned something better that would involve us, so that only with us would they be brought to the goal.
No one has been fully restored, but no one is in sheol either. That is what John shows in Revelation 6:9-11
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been put to death for proclaiming the Word of God, that is, for bearing witness.
10 They cried out in a loud voice, “Sovereign Ruler, HaKadosh, the True One, how long will it be before you judge the people living on earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Each of them was given a white robe; and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow-servants should be reached, of their brothers who would be killed, just as they had been.
These are the whole church, waiting under the alter. Both OT and NT, all in Christ, because the alter is where the Atonement was offered when Jesus Christ the Lamb ascended 3.5 days after the Cross. Hebrews 11, says all have to wait, until all are gathered. The last group gathered will be taken up alive, because that is what Paul said would happen. Those alive would not prevent those dead, to rise. All the dead have already arrived. But when the Lamb appears in the air, those alive will join those waiting under the alter.
The OT Saints could not leave sheol until the Cross. But the restoration for those under the alter in Christ, has to wait until the 5th seal is opened. Then the 6th seal is God on the throne come down, so all will know God literally. The Lamb comes, the church is complete. Revelation 7 says all with glorified bodies in the temple of God. Billions of glorified restored descendants of Adam, back to Adam's original image of God form. Back in the temple, Garden/Paradise, that God created for all of Adam's descendants to live in.
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Yes, he most obviously was. And you admitted as much when you said Peter was wrong.
Acts 2:34 (KJV) For David is not ascended into the heavens...
timtofly
Well-Known Member
That is because Peter was talking about when David died and when Christ died. David did not ascend when David died. David ascended when Jesus did. Jesus ascended 3 days after He died. David had to wait for the Cross. David claimed he would not be left in sheol multiple times. David was not left in sheol. Peter's point was never about David, even though Peter explained to them, that they thought David was still dead. No one would have accepted the fact that David had already ascended. Peter did not witness that ascension of Jesus and the OT saints. Peter witnessed the one 40 days later. Peter was explaining that David was talking about Christ, but even the Jews never accepted any prophecy in the OT was about Christ. David was not even talking about ascension. The prophecy was that all would return to earth one day. David would never ascend to heaven ever. Peter would have said that he would not ascend either in the same context. They were waiting for Jesus to return to this earth. So Peter was not even given the full revelation yet. So taking Peter's words, and claiming it never happened out of Peter's own context is wrong. Now we know that in Christ we do go to a place prepared for us, and it is not sheol. Peter's record in saying things before thinking is already established. He was never inspired to contradict known scripture. Nor were any inspired to correct Peter. That does not mean everything he said is a truth. That is why there is context, and in this case the context of more than 3 authors.
Peter talked about David’s current state, how is still dead and buried and is not ascended. If you are unwilling to see that, then your presuppositions have clouded your eyes to the scripture. You need to let go of false doctrine.
Acts 2:29 (KJV) Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he IS both dead and buried, and his sepulchre IS with us unto THIS day.
Acts 2:34 (KJV) For David IS not ascended into the heavens:
And claiming ignorance for Peter in the first sermon of Christ’s church, when he was speaking about THE central tenet of the Christian hope, you’ve declared our faith vain and useless.
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timtofly
Well-Known Member
In declaring David still in sheol, you call the whole trust in God into question. You are taking Peter's 2nd hand account over the rest of Scripture.
in saying Peter is wrong about resurrection, when that’s the whole point of his sermon, you’re not only calling Luke a liar, but saying we can’t trust scripture unless it agrees with your interpretation. That’s a very dangerous position to take, my friend.
Instead, we should always be willing to let go of our personal beliefs when they conflict with scripture.
But you haven’t yet shown where my interpretation conflicts with scripture. There was no promise that David would have been resurrected by this time. None.
And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. 2 Sam 12:22,23
Guess who else was still in Sheol on that day of Pentecost?
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, ( And son) and saw corruption: Acts 13:36
37 But he, whom God raised again, (whose soul was not left in Hades/Sheol) saw no corruption.
And it seems pretty clear that to "leave a soul in Sheol" corresponds directly with "seeing corruption". Which tells us that the fight against corruption of the body, which Jesus won, will be waged in a resurrection of our bodies, which is directly tied to "leaving Sheol".
I think that means that David is in some kind of condition where his body is corrupted (I assume "decayed"), but he's not active in some other form. His soul might be in some kind of storage place, like Sheol, or his soul might be just inactive--"dead"--waiting to be revived along with his body, which could be what the Old Testament writers meant by "going down to Sheol". Since souls don't actually go somewhere without the body, they enter a state of inactivity called "Sheol".
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