What is God waiting on?

No calvinist, eh? You might want to rethink that. There are a couple on this thread alone.

Also, I'm glad you agree the following is a strawman...
If man chooses who gets saved and who doesn't, doesn't that make him, man, sovereign?

 

I read through the whole thread I found no one who says that God makes people sin or tells people to sin.

 

Read carefully, Russell55 said that no Calvinist believes that God "makes people sin or tells them to sin".
You are not being careful to distinguish your understanding of Calvinism(hyper, et al) from what Calvinists believe.
God does not make people sin nor does he tell them to sin.
People sin because they want to.
It just so happens that from God's perspective, the sin conforms to His plan.
Man is still the sinner because the sin was birthed within his mind/desires.
Again:
I do not need God to force me to sin nor do I need him to command me to sin.
I sin because I desire it more at that given moment than I desire holiness.
The blame is mine as the Bible teaches, but the sin conforms to His purposes.
I deserve the punishment that my sins bring me and cannot blame God for accomplishing His will through my sin.
Acts 2:23 is one of the clearest biblical examples of this understanding.

 

Hi RB and Russel;
The two of you obviously disagree then. RB said;

And russel said;

If God is sovereign and this means He is in constant control. How is it control has to be patient? According to RB's view God controls every thought of man why then would He have to be patient? It just doesn't make any sense to me that a Sovereign God who is in control of everything would need to be patient. How can a God in control of the man have to wait on the man? This certainly doesn't show control as the Calvinist would like to believe control is. While we are at it why does man need God to be patient with Him?
MB

 

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Yes.

Yes, but. Yes, the determinism is rooted in God's eternal plan, but the plan, in and of itself, causes nothing to occur. The plan unfolds in history as God works within creation according to the plan. In bringing about the ordained events, God's influence not symmetrical. He ordains all things, but he does not directly cause all things.

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Yes. That means sinful events are included in the plan. They are not, however, caused by the agency of the Holy Spirit in the way that righteous events in history are. That's what I meant when I said God does not make people sin. The Holy Spirit does not work within people to influence them to sin.

 

That is not so Skandelon. That describes me, the heretic , not main stream Calvinism. Mainstream believe sinners make their own choice to go to Hell and as such they are indeterminists.

Cool. Thanks for your support, I thought I had it wrong for a while.

Sure does. You put the case better than most Calvinists but I'm the heretic because I'm not mainstream.

john.

 

I'll stick this in here though it is a reply to another thread.

God being the Author of sin might be heretical to the majority of Christians including Calvinists but it is not heretical to Calvin's thought below.

...and hold that all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God. With regard to inanimate objects again we must hold that though each is possessed of its peculiar properties, yet all of them exert their force only in so far as directed by the immediate hand of God. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book Book I Chapter 16. http://www.mbrem.com/calvinism/calprov.htm )

Neither does it contradict scripture. I see that God has bound all men over to disobedience so I believe God has bound us all over to disobedience. Rom 11:32.

I read in the NIV that PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue. If I were to use the KJV then even The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD PR 16:1.

Sorry russel, you were wrong.

john.

 

Isaiah.

He does man. Scripture is full of God bringing evil onto people by people.

And they want to because God causes them to want to.

Scripture is missing. Here's mine, God has bound all men over to sin. Jews and Gentiles. If it is not Him then why, RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

Yes you do because if you decide a thing then God did not and Sovereignty is lost regardless of the fact that that is what He wanted, the decision is made by man thus man is sovereign.

That is not in dispute but why does He blame us for who resists His will?

john.

 

God isn't waiting on the man. He is, however, purposefully delaying his judgment, and it requires his forbearance to postpone merited judgment.

 

MB.

That is right MB but that is not mainstream Calvinism.

God is working out His plan according to the laws of cause and effect. Cause and effect are alien to Him and is there for our benefit. It is for our benefit that He waits the time. He could snap His Fingers and we would all be in eternity now.

Time passes for us and in that we grow. This is His system but He still needs to wait for us. If He wanted to He could just have made His Children but what would we know? He could have created us with all the knowledge without the drag, that's what we would do but we ain't Him.

john.

 

Yes, he's waiting for repentence in some. And in some with which he's longsuffering, he's not waiting for repentence. The scripture also uses the words "endure with longsuffering" in regards to God's withholding of judgment to those who are already fitted for destruction. In that case, he's not waiting for them to repent, since, at the very least, he knows they won't.

He's waiting on his plan, but he's also waiting for the sinner to repent as part of his plan.

Only if you don't think that God planning to bring someone to repentence, and then waiting for them to come to repentence in time is somehow incompatible. I don't think it is. Perhaps you find it counterintuitive, but I'm pretty sure you can't show that they are incompatible.

 

Hi Russel;

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Being long suffering toward us isn't waiting on His plans. It's delaying His plan for men to be saved. He delays them to wait on man. God is "Sovereign" the problem is the mis-definition of the word Sovereign. It doesn't mean control, it means "Authority". Yes God has the authority and always will. Although to bring His plan about there are things He has to allow, inorder for it to happen. In those circumstances He isn't in control. If He was then He wouldn't be able to allow it. Sin for an example; God cannot even touch it and remain righteous.
MB

 

If you want to discuss this with the other Calvinists, then why don't you start a new thread.

 

That is exactly right Skandelon. Duet 29:4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.

And:

MT 13:11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

That is just your take put in a way that gives me the impression you don't like what you hear. God never gives the impression that He loves all men, ...They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. 1 Peter 2:8.

MB. His whole plan calls for Him to have patience. He waited for Calvarly. He waited thousands of years with the knowledge that it would, were He to be corporal, make Him sweat blood. He waits for the sheep to come to come. His plan includes His patience. His Sovereignty is not displaced by His having to wait but He could in the twinkling of the eye finish it now with all the elect elected and all the reprobates reprobated. The reason He does not is due to His plan involving cause and effect. I find that simple and easy to understand. He waits for us as He builds His Church. He has set the times but is itching for the fulfilment of the times. He is actually excited about me. When I threw in the towel He rejoiced even though He knew I would come.

Sovereign means Sovereign MB. My Sovereign is more Sovereign than your sovereign. That must be true, (Anselm).

God is not in control then? I find this a very strange concept. I remember the days I thought He was far off but I became a Christian. Where is the scripture for this non-control, I do not see it? Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word...
All things need to be sustained otherwise they would not be. If God can create objects independant of Him I do not know but the system we are in precludes such. He is responsible for cause and effect and He moves each piece into the next correct position according to the laws of the nature He has established.

If He has to with anything then He is not Sovereign is He?

And with this you want to prove Him Sovereign? A God that is not in control isn't God because He is not Sovereign. DA 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"

We are nothing. You are nothing as I am. Nothing is us. All glory goes to God. We are property and He treats us as such. If He wants to condemn us for no reason He is free to do so and that is precisely what He does. JOB 9:15 Though I were innocent, I could not answer him; I could only plead with my Judge for mercy.

Your definition of sin is wrong then. Sin is disobedience to God? Only if He is disobedient to Himself can a charge of Sinner be levelled at Him and then you have the trouble of bringing the charge and bringing Him to His own bench. The Catholic King Charles I had the right argument concerning this only he wasn't sovereign, he only had authority not sovereignty.

john.

 

Hello Isaiah. Are you willing to go the course? I am.


john.