What is God's highest virtue?

[Winman]

I would say God's holiness is his greatest attribute. This is what the angels cry day and night.

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

 

[quantumfaith]

What does it mean to "glorify" God? What are the properties? What does it look like? What is God receiving when he is being glorified? Does not just the very existence of the cosmos "declare his glory"?

 

[Benjamin]

This is in response to another thread that started to get derailed.

I noticed what you said and decided to let it go, but since you felt compelled to raise the issue:

I asserted that God is for God before he is for anyone or anything else. He loves his glory more than you or me.

Yes, you did assert this this and found it a strange statement to come out of the mouth of one who has a relation with God. For in love of the creatures He created (you and me) God sacrificed His Only Begotten

Thus his greatest virtue is his self-glorification.

God’s glory is in bringing love into the world for His creatures. The free return of love blesses Him.

I'm sure we'll get into the ethics behind that ("love seeks not its own"), but there is a great logic to it as well. If God glorified something higher than himself, and that thing is less worthy than God, then God would be an idolater.

God is our loving Master and we bring Him glory in our choosing through love to give service to Him. God was also glorified in His service (paying the price) to us unworthy creatures. Your logic does not follow that God would an idolator, I find that to be an absurd conclusion.

Ps 23 is a good demonstration of this. God does all that awesome stuff "for his name's sake." God blesses us for the sake of his name. That is throughout the OT.

The Lord, our Master, our King is also our Shepherd who guides and takes care of His creatures which He brought into in the world. As the sheep returns worth to the shepherd so does God’s creature return the value of love which brings Him glory. I fail to see the ethics or your logic following.

Why does God create us? For his glory (Isa. 43:7)

For His glory, therefore He will glorify His power, goodness and faithfulness in delivering them with the coming of His Son, who brought the light of His loving Word, who died to pay the price so that they/we (all His creatures) "may" live in Him.

Why does God save us?

Because He is a God of Love.

God performs salvation for His own sake. He justifies the people called by His name in order that He may be glorified. (Exo. 36:22—23, 32)

God shows mercy to them that love Him, Exo 20:6, Deu 5:10, therefore one might conclude that God performs salvation for the sake of reciprocal love being brought into all the world. I have no clue how you conclude the scripture you presented here supports your logic.

Why did God rescue the Israelites from Egypt the way he did? So that his name would be proclaimed. (Exo. 9:16)

God rescues the people that bring His Word that proclaims His power of love may be known in all the world and that thou mayest love the Lord thy God and know Him. God has to bring down the proudest of his enemies; that His name, irresistible power, and inflexible justice, might be declared throughout all the earth – not only then but now, and not by design but by example this will be the event.

It does not follow that that these events were determined by design, we have numerous instances of this manner of speaking which denote not the design but His Providential Sovereign Control over the events which happen.

Why did God not destroy Israel time after time when they disobeyed him? For his name sake and his fame amongst the nations. (Ezek. 20:14)

Because God is longsuffering in His work that His name be known to all in the world. All in the world will know that He is a God of love who brought mercy and grace into all the world unto all who come to Him in faith, none will have an excuse and all will be judged accordingly.

I find your claims of seemingly divine narcissistic motives being attributed to God to be completely out of line with the sacrifices He made.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

…and I can only conclude your efforts are an attempt to justify Hard Deterministic views to support Calvinist doctrines. I find such to be a rather odd understanding though…

 

[Greektim]

I noticed what you said and decided to let it go, but since you felt compelled to raise the issue:



Yes, you did assert this this and found it a strange statement to come out of the mouth of one who has a relation with God. For in love of the creatures He created (you and me) God sacrificed His Only Begotten



God’s glory is in bringing love into the world for His creatures. The free return of love blesses Him.


God is our loving Master and we bring Him glory in our choosing through love to give service to Him. God was also glorified in His service (paying the price) to us unworthy creatures. Your logic does not follow that God would an idolator, I find that to be an absurd conclusion.



The Lord, our Master, our King is also our Shepherd who guides and takes care of His creatures which He brought into in the world. As the sheep returns worth to the shepherd so does God’s creature return the value of love which brings Him glory. I fail to see the ethics or your logic following.



For His glory, therefore He will glorify His power, goodness and faithfulness in delivering them with the coming of His Son, who brought the light of His loving Word, who died to pay the price so that they/we (all His creatures) "may" live in Him.



Because He is a God of Love.



God shows mercy to them that love Him, Exo 20:6, Deu 5:10, therefore one might conclude that God performs salvation for the sake of reciprocal love being brought into all the world. I have no clue how you conclude the scripture you presented here supports your logic.




God rescues the people that bring His Word that proclaims His power of love may be known in all the world and that thou mayest love the Lord thy God and know Him. God has to bring down the proudest of his enemies; that His name, irresistible power, and inflexible justice, might be declared throughout all the earth – not only then but now, and not by design but by example this will be the event.

It does not follow that that these events were determined by design, we have numerous instances of this manner of speaking which denote not the design but His Providential Sovereign Control over the events which happen.



Because God is longsuffering in His work that His name be known to all in the world. All in the world will know that He is a God of love who brought mercy and grace into all the world unto all who come to Him in faith, none will have an excuse and all will be judged accordingly.

I find your claims of seemingly divine narcissistic motives being attributed to God to be completely out of line with the sacrifices He made.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

…and I can only conclude your efforts are an attempt to justify Hard Deterministic views to support Calvinist doctrines. I find such to be a rather odd understanding though…

Notice I used the Bible in my assertions. You used Jn 3:16 to say a bunch of nothing. Thanks for the contribution.

As for my attempts, they are to communicate that we need a bigger view of God than this pathetic concept that God is for us more than for himself. A man-centered God, really?

To everything you said, I would ask you "to what end?" Why does God love us and save us? What is his end game? What is his goal? Where is he going with all of this?

Hint: Paul said it nicely, "That God might be ALL IN ALL."

 

[quantumfaith]

Notice I used the Bible in my assertions. You used Jn 3:16 to say a bunch of nothing. Thanks for the contribution.

As for my attempts, they are to communicate that we need a bigger view of God than this pathetic concept that God is for us more than for himself. A man-centered God, really?

To everything you said, I would ask you "to what end?" Why does God love us and save us? What is his end game? What is his goal? Where is he going with all of this?

Hint: Paul said it nicely, "That God might be ALL IN ALL."

I have no problem, at all, with a man centered God. In fact, is not the entire point of the redemption story? Hint: The Scriptures, and John 3:16 is the pinnacle scripture of that truth.

 

[percho]

This is in response to another thread that started to get derailed.

I asserted that God is for God before he is for anyone or anything else. He loves his glory more than you or me.

Thus his greatest virtue is his self-glorification.

I'm sure we'll get into the ethics behind that ("love seeks not its own"), but there is a great logic to it as well. If God glorified something higher than himself, and that thing is less worthy than God, then God would be an idolater.

Ps 23 is a good demonstration of this. God does all that awesome stuff "for his name's sake." God blesses us for the sake of his name. That is throughout the OT.

Why does God create us? For his glory (Isa. 43:7)

Why does God save us? God performs salvation for His own sake. He justifies the people called by His name in order that He may be glorified. (Exo. 36:22—23, 32)

Why did God rescue the Israelites from Egypt the way he did? So that his name would be proclaimed. (Exo. 9:16)

Why did God not destroy Israel time after time when they disobeyed him? For his name sake and his fame amongst the nations. (Ezek. 20:14)

Do the scriptures not say that we are to be the glory of God?

Then think about the following in that context.
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. (sake) Acts 15:14
What mind set should these have?
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Phil 2:5

What mind? What follows that verse?

Is this not a little scary?

Is the beginning point of this not, A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. John 13:34

If that takes place will not God be glorified?

 

[Greektim]

I have no problem, at all, with a man centered God. In fact, is not the entire point of the redemption story? Hint: The Scriptures, and John 3:16 is the pinnacle scripture of that truth.

No... I think the entire point of redemption is God's glory. Again... the gospel story from 1 Cor. 15:1-4 goes forward towards God's kingdom. And the point of all of that is v. 29, "That God may be all in all." God saves for his glory. While God is for us, he is more for himself. And that's ok. If he were more for something less than himself, if he placed more value in something less valuable than himself, he would be an idolater.

Eze 36:22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came.
Eze 36:23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.

Eze 36:32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord GOD; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

If you look at the previous verses, you will see New Covenant concepts that greatly impact NT soteriology. And what is God's point? "Not for your sake but for the sake of my holy name."

 

[percho]

No... I think the entire point of redemption is God's glory. Again... the gospel story from 1 Cor. 15:1-4 goes forward towards God's kingdom. And the point of all of that is v. 29, "That God may be all in all." God saves for his glory. While God is for us, he is more for himself. And that's ok. If he were more for something less than himself, if he placed more value in something less valuable than himself, he would be an idolater.

Eze 36:22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came.
Eze 36:23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.

Eze 36:32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord GOD; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

If you look at the previous verses, you will see New Covenant concepts that greatly impact NT soteriology. And what is God's point? "Not for your sake but for the sake of my holy name."

And he does that by taking that which profaned his name and purifying it through his Son and gathering it unto himself.

And this he proposed before the foundation of the world, therefore in his Son we have this: Rom 8:29,30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God does that with those who have profaned his holy name. He scattered them and He will regather them.

He choose the children of Israel that through scattering and regathering the heathen would know that he is the LORD thus bringing glory unto himself. There is a verse for this somewhere. You found it. Ezek 36:23

Does he regather them all at once or do the feasts of God point to how the regathering and or reconciliation of the world takes place? The firstfruits first, the tabernacle of David next, and the residue of man after that. See Acts 15:14-17

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. Gen 49:10

 

[percho]

Greektim

Doesn't the word of God show that God is in man glorifying himself?

Didn't God come in the flesh as man, in the Son of God the Son of Man?

Is not presently, this moment, the Son of Man, Jesus sitting on the right hand of the Father God as Man?

for one is God, one also is mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Tim 2:5 YLT

Is that speaking of this present time? When this,"that," comes to be will not God be glorified? For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Was Adam who was created in the image of God, made a little lower than the angels, created to be as we find him in Genesis 4:1 or was he created to be like the resurrected Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels?

Did God expect the Adam of Genesis 1:26 to be like the resurrected Jesus or did he know then that Adam would need to be born again?

 

[OldRegular]

This is in response to another thread that started to get derailed.

I asserted that God is for God before he is for anyone or anything else. He loves his glory more than you or me.

Thus his greatest virtue is his self-glorification.

I'm sure we'll get into the ethics behind that ("love seeks not its own"), but there is a great logic to it as well. If God glorified something higher than himself, and that thing is less worthy than God, then God would be an idolater.

Ps 23 is a good demonstration of this. God does all that awesome stuff "for his name's sake." God blesses us for the sake of his name. That is throughout the OT.

Why does God create us? For his glory (Isa. 43:7)

Why does God save us? God performs salvation for His own sake. He justifies the people called by His name in order that He may be glorified. (Exo. 36:22—23, 32)

Why did God rescue the Israelites from Egypt the way he did? So that his name would be proclaimed. (Exo. 9:16)

Why did God not destroy Israel time after time when they disobeyed him? For his name sake and his fame amongst the nations. (Ezek. 20:14)

Man is not capable of making any judgment about the virtue or nature of God.

 

[quantumfaith]

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

 

[Greektim]

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

The question is not our greatest virtue. That is what those verses address.

However, I would say that to love God w/ all your fill in the blank is another way of saying glorify God.

 

[quantumfaith]

The question is not our greatest virtue. That is what those verses address.

However, I would say that to love God w/ all your fill in the blank is another way of saying glorify God.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Hence the connection to the proposition of "love" being the greatest virtue.

 

[Greektim]

[/U][/I][/B]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

So you agree that our highest virtue is to glorify God.

Then what is God's highest?

 

[quantumfaith]

So you agree that our highest virtue is to glorify God.

Then what is God's highest?

Nope, I go with "love"

 

[Inspector Javert]

Nope, I go with "love"

:applause::thumbsup: Agreed Quantum! :thumbsup:

It's Love....

God is only Glorified BY love.

I say God's greatest virtue is love, and what most glorifies him is when otherwise un-lovable creatures respond to HIS great love, and subsequently love him in return.

God only said that he "IS" one cardinal virtue, and that was love.
Love is what God "IS" more than anything. It is the one word which most describes him and his properties. They can all be summed up with the word love.

I believe God is "just".
And "justice" is a sub-set of love.

I believe God is "faithful".
And "faithfulness" is a sub-set of love.

I believe God is honest and true.
And those are subsets of love.

I believe the ultimate uniqueness of the God of the Bible is that he is a Trinity...
And the binding glue which makes the Biblical God a Trinity (absurd in any man-contrived religion)....is love.

The highest form of love is when a person can debase and humiliate themselves for the benefit of the completely un-worthy and un-lovable....God did that for us. And I say he did so, because he loves us.

I am with my Calvinist brethren on one major point...
I DO BELIEVE that God has absolutely no freedom of choice whatsoever when it comes to one thing:
And that is to love another. I don't particularly think that God was REALLY capable of NOT creating mankind. I think that God is love to the extent that it was inextricably bound in his nature to find a person towards whom to show and share that love.

God had perfect harmony, fellowship, and communion within the Trinity (and therefore does not "need" man), yes.......
But not more objects of his love. I think God was BOUND by his nature to love another....and he therefore created man to love. Angels can glorify him (and do so ad nauseum ). But he didn't create man PRIMARILY for his "glory". He created him so that HE could love THEM.

When he made man, he wasn't creating servants....he was creating a BRIDE.

I think that sums up the whole of the Biblical revelation.

 

[convicted1]

Could we be fair in saying only love is His greatest attribute? I see His love, mercy, justice, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence as being Him. To me, it's hard to say His holiness or His love is greatest. Everything about Him is His greatest attribute, imo.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Could we be fair in saying only love is His greatest attribute? I see His love, mercy, justice, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence as being Him. To me, it's hard to say His holiness or His love is greatest. Everything about Him is His greatest attribute, imo.

Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence and the like are (to me) not really comparable.

Can a man posses or demonstrate ANY level of those attributes?
NO.

But, he is capable of love.

Other attributes such as mercy, justice, faithfulness etc...are out-pourings of "love". Those are attributes expressible by man. They can be possessed or expressed in at least some degree.

Man can't do any of the "OMNIS".....and there's no way to do them in part. They are all or nothing.


I suppose I would more accurately answer the question of the O.P. in this manner:

"AS IT RELATES TO MAN......then God's "greatest" virtue is love."

 

[Greektim]

:applause::thumbsup: Agreed Quantum! :thumbsup:

It's Love....

God is only Glorified BY love.

I say God's greatest virtue is love, and what most glorifies him is when otherwise un-lovable creatures respond to HIS great love, and subsequently love him in return.

God only said that he "IS" one cardinal virtue, and that was love.
Love is what God "IS" more than anything. It is the one word which most describes him and his properties. They can all be summed up with the word love.

I believe God is "just".
And "justice" is a sub-set of love.

I believe God is "faithful".
And "faithfulness" is a sub-set of love.

I believe God is honest and true.
And those are subsets of love.

I believe the ultimate uniqueness of the God of the Bible is that he is a Trinity...
And the binding glue which makes the Biblical God a Trinity (absurd in any man-contrived religion)....is love.

The highest form of love is when a person can debase and humiliate themselves for the benefit of the completely un-worthy and un-lovable....God did that for us. And I say he did so, because he loves us.

I am with my Calvinist brethren on one major point...
I DO BELIEVE that God has absolutely no freedom of choice whatsoever when it comes to one thing:
And that is to love another. I don't particularly think that God was REALLY capable of NOT creating mankind. I think that God is love to the extent that it was inextricably bound in his nature to find a person towards whom to show and share that love.

God had perfect harmony, fellowship, and communion within the Trinity (and therefore does not "need" man), yes.......
But not more objects of his love. I think God was BOUND by his nature to love another....and he therefore created man to love. Angels can glorify him (and do so ad nauseum ). But he didn't create man PRIMARILY for his "glory". He created him so that HE could love THEM.

When he made man, he wasn't creating servants....he was creating a BRIDE.

I think that sums up the whole of the Biblical revelation.

God is glorified by wrath as well as love... as well as a host of his other attributes.

This is not a debate over God's greatest attribute. That misses the point. It's holiness by the way .

The issue is, what is God's highest virtue? If love, then I would ask to what end is God's love? Eventually, the end will be his glory... the highest virtue.

 

[Greektim]

Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence and the like are (to me) not really comparable.

Can a man posses or demonstrate ANY level of those attributes?
NO.

But, he is capable of love.

Other attributes such as mercy, justice, faithfulness etc...are out-pourings of "love". Those are attributes expressible by man. They can be possessed or expressed in at least some degree.

Man can't do any of the "OMNIS".....and there's no way to do them in part. They are all or nothing.


I suppose I would more accurately answer the question of the O.P. in this manner:

"AS IT RELATES TO MAN......then God's "greatest" virtue is love."

Again, this is not about the greatest attribute.

And your quote demonstrates the futility of your idea. "As it relates to man..." but what about as it relates to GOD? And even God's loves for humans is not an end in itself. It is a means to an end... God's glory!!!