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The old "mainstream" pentacostals have their peculiar views in regard sto the working of the holy spirit, but that is NOWHERE near as bad as the word of faith/health/wealth etc spewed by modern chasmatic movement!

 

I completely agree. In fact, wasn't it the Assemblies of God that kicked out the original Latter Rain people?

 

Yes and No!

While I do not completely support Copeland/Hagin/Price and especially Hinn, I believe these men do provide an outlet to many believers who desire a closer relationship, and by closer I mean spiritual. Many believers are looking for more in their spiritual life, and they search for the signs and wonders mentioned in Acts 2:19, 22 and 43.

However, these same people are the ones who are subject to being easily misled by false teachers and prophets [as mentioned in Matthew 24:24 and Mark 13:22, falling into the trap Jesus speaks about in John 4:48].

I am not God, and will not automatically state that the preachers mentioned above, plus others like Jesse Duplantis [note the first letters of his last name resemble the act of "dup"ing!], however, I've watched these men and do not feel any kinship with them or their teachings. I can also say this applies to Pastor Joel "all smiles" Osteen.

The same can be said when it comes to TBN. While I enjoy some of the preachers and especially music shows on the channel, I have no respect for the founders of this network or their family. I lost respect when they paid off the person who had an illicit relationship with Paul Crouch [a gay relationship, nonetheless,].

So, while I can't judge the men and their doctrines as false, I stir far away from them, and warn those who ask me, or who sit under my teaching to Scripturally scrutinize these ministries and beware of a mixing of what is true along with emotional hype to draw one in.

I believe that a child of God who has a balanced understanding of the Word will be able to avoid the traps of emotionalism and spiritual hype.

I take their teaching, as I do with many on this board, "With a grain of salt!" Just as I'm sure there are many of you who feel the same toward me.

As I always said, I am not God, and along with these men, and many of you on this board, we will be called into a meeting once we get to heaven, and all of our errors will be revealed. That should be a humbling experience, which is why I do not try to take myself toooooooo serious. :laugh:

Everyone, including my brother [Iconolcast], have great points, and it is well within the bounds of our hearts to listen to what each of us said, and learns what is acceptable. Believe it or not, IC and I may disagree a lot, but we are not that far off, and in one area of doctrine, we both agree: You must first be saved, water baptised, and be involved in a good Bible teaching church.

Sure I believe in the gifts, and in truth, I have a few of them; however, I'd never lord it over any of you who may not possess these gifts. Nor would I pretend to say that if you do not possess these gifts, you can't be one of His. What I have is for me, and it is between me and my God. The most important thing in my walk and yours is that we have come to Him, needing to be saved, confessed our sins, received him into our heart, been baptized, and are growing in the Word and in our walk, daily.

Gifts, theological supremacy, academia, popularity, the name on your church sign board, and whatever else you can come up with, will not mean a thing when we are called home and stand before Him.

I hope that answers you inquiry, Yeshua! :type:

Shalom!

 

Paragraph Correction....

...I left out my thought in the below paragraph, and the corrections are in red print. SORRY:

I am not God, and will not automatically state that the preachers mentioned above [including Jesse Duplantis who has an interesting correlation with the first three letters in his last name being "dup" which is close to the word "dupe!"] are "false prophets," however, I've watched these men and do not feel any kinship with them or their teachings. I can also say this applies to Pastor Joel "all smiles" Osteen. Those that attend their services are doing so without a gun held to their head!

 

tyhe Bible states that IF one messes up the theology of the Cross and the doctrine of Christ, there are false teachers!

ALL those men that I listed have preverted the gospel, teaching a different one, and have a different jesus, so all indeed can and need to be 'rightly judged!"

problem NOT with the pentacostals such as typical Assemblies of god, but its the mass confusion and heretical doctrine allowed with the modern 'Chasmatic chaos" movement!

 

Per Wikipedia:
"During the early years, some of the most ardent critics of the Latter Rain and its theology came from within Pentecostalism, particularly the Assemblies of God. In 1949, the General Council of the Assemblies of God, following the leadership of its General Superintendent E. S. Williams, stated that pre-tribulation rapture represented correct eschatology. It rejected the Latter Rain practice of personal prophecy accompanied by the laying on of hands, as well as the Manifest Sons of God doctrine."

Also , per Wikipedia:

"Some Pentecostal preachers and evangelists began to embrace and preach the doctrines of Oneness and Jesus' Name baptism during this time, which led to friction within the new movement. When the Assemblies of God formally affirmed the traditional doctrine of the Trinity at its Fourth General Council in October 1916, Oneness Pentecostals were forced to withdraw. Two months later, several Oneness ministers met in Eureka Springs, Arkansas, and on January 2, 1917, formed a Oneness Pentecostal organization called the General Assembly of the Apostolic Assemblies."

They claimed a 'revelation" that trinity was false, and the Assemblies outright condemned that as being NOT from the Sprit, but falsehood!

Pity rest of Chasmatics did not follow the Assemblies in condemning both groups!

 

I Do Not Disagree With You, BUT...

....as I said, I am not God. What you or I think is "Messed up theology" will, in fact, have to be judged by God, not mankind.

I have a mindset when it comes to theology, which I can almost assuredly say does not fit into your mindset. That does not make you a false teacher, Yeshua, and it does not make me a false teacher. It makes us opinionated on how we read the Word and interpret it.

I honestly believe God will judge all of us, for our misunderstandings, and reward us for the good things our ministries do for others. The "messed up preachers" you refer to are not all bad. And their ministries have brought tons of people to the cross of Jesus.

Maybe you feel solid enough in your beliefs to make a judgment against these and others, but I will wait and see. We spend way too much time judging others and not enough time preaching the Gospel.

Even the worst of the w bring people to God through Jesus; it's just the rest of their ministry that oft runs afoul with Scripture, as we see and know it to be. And with that said, remember, Yeshua, if you were to sit across the table from any of these men, they'd in turn be critical of your way of applying the Gospel. Criticism is a two-way-street. It has a door that swings both ways, so we need to be very careful, because we will be judged for unduly judging others. :type:

Shalom! :thumbs:

 

Far from condemning them, when the Charismatic movement developed in the 1960s (there were no Charismatics until then, only Pentecostals), the leaders embrace the false doctrines previously rejected by the old line Pentecostals.

 

Don't you think the Apostles would have judged by the scriptures though the mormons/jw etc of their times?

We are COMMANDED to do such by the Lord, and when we compare those word of faith teachings against the bible, its a different another gospel and jesus, they are heretics all!

it would be one thing i fthey were just making mistakes on interpreattions, but they all claim to have divine revelation from the holy sprit, and that is NOT true, but heeding deluding and deminic spirits instead!

 

makes me wonder just WHAT Spirit they are listening too?

Know the old time pentacostals, despite their various mis understandings, appear to have the Holy Spirit guiding their decisions in this, while the modern day charasmatic by and large seem to be following "a different spirit, not the One of Christ!"

 

So, righteousdude, you have a few gifts.

I am late to this party, so forgive me if I ask redundant questions. What gifts do you have? You won't be able to lord them over me, so don't worry. Please, I ask to try and understand what gifts you think you have. The reason I ask is that some will also stand before God one day and be told this:

Matthew 7:22-23 (HCSB)
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

Satan has power too, and he can convince folks they have something from God when it is not so. So what gifts do you have again?

 

Indeed, all important is not what miracles/tongues/signs etc one claims to have from god, but do you have the right Gospel , and the right Christ?

 

Your final statement above is the source of much of the problem. Perceptive believers fail to condemn what these people are pushing. Pastors fail their responsibility when they neglect to warn their congregation about the erroeous, even heretical, teachings of these people. In my opinion all those so-called preachers in the Word of Faith movement are heretics. That includes all those mentioned above.

No one should say that we can't judge these men. Their false teachings cannot stand the light of Scripture. The Apostle Paul tells us:

Titus 3:10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

In the following post I show some of what these people believe. I have presented this before but perhaps some have not read it!

 

The Heresy of Word of Faith

Before anyone gets caught up in the "word-faith" heresy taught by Hagin, Kenyon, Copeland, Hinn, Crouch, Capps, Savelle, Hagin, Avanzini, Price and others of similar stripe they should read "Charismatic Chaos" by John MacArthur, "Christianity in Crisis" by Hank Hanegraaff, and Appendis B of the most recent version of "The Kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin.

The Heresy of Word of Faith

One of the most dominant heresies of today is the ‘so-called’ word of faith movement. The heretical teachings of this Word of Faith Movement, which are summarized in the following paragraphs, demonstrate the importance of adhering to the truth [From the Kingdom of the Cults, revised, page 497]. Also presented are Scripture which refute this heretical teaching.

1 God is a being who stands approximately six feet tall, weighs some two hundred pounds, and looks exactly like a man.


2 Faith is the literal substance that God used to create the universe, and He transported that faith with His words. Here, essentially, is what God did. God filled His words with faith. He used His words as containers to hold His faith and contain that spiritual force and transport it out there into the vast darkness by saying, ‘light, be’! That's the way God transported His faith causing creation and transformation. The way that He created the world was that, first of all, he conceived something on the inside of Him. He conceived, He had an image, He had a picture.


3 All things, including God, are subject to this ‘force of faith’ beause it works according to spiritual ‘laws’ of the universe. There are laws of the world of the spirit.... The spiritual world and its laws are more powerful than the physical world .... The world and the physical forces governing it were created by the power of faith--a spiritual force. ..... It is this force of faith which makes the laws of the spirit world function. The force of faith is released by words. Faith-filled words put the law of the Spirit of life into operation.


4 The greatest thing God conceived of and created was an exact duplicate of himself. This duplicate god--named Adam-was God manifested in the flesh.


5 God eventually went to Adam, who was anatomically male and female, and separated the female part from the male part to make a womb-man (woman). Adam named this ‘man with a womb’ Eve. She, like Adam, was a god.


6 The Fall caused Adam and Eve's divine natures to be replaced with Satan’s nature. They also lost their rights of rulership to planet earth. Even God was barred from having full access to earth because Adam and Eve were under His lordship when they ‘fell’. Through their disobedience Satan became the god of this world.


7 God formulated a scheme to take back the earth, but in order to execute His plan He had to find a human who would invite Him (give Him permission) to work within the earthly realm. Finally, God got to a point where He had His plan ready for operation. And He saw a man named Abraham. In return for allowing God to bring the Messiah through his lineage, Abraham received unlimited health and wealth.


8 For centuries God visualized Jesus. Then, when it was finally time for the Messiah to come forth, God spoke him into existence through faith in the same way that He had visualized and spoken into existence everything else. Bringing forth Jesus, however, was also dependent upon whether or not Mary would lend her faith to help form the body of the Lord out of the literal ‘Word’ (confession).


9 While on earth Jesus was wealthy. He lived in a big house, had a great deal of money, and wore the finest clothes.


10 Although Jesus declared that he walked with God and that God was in Him, he never actually claimed to be God. In fact, during his three years of public ministry Jesus did not stand in a class by himself.... He was ministering on earth as a human being -- a prophet anointed with the Holy Spirit. Jesus remained sinless so He could redeem men from their Satanic natures.


11 In order to redeem humanity, Jesus had to die spiritually as well as physically. When He died spiritually, he died in the same way that Adam died. In other words, He lost His divine nature and was given the nature of Satan. Jesus’ death on the cross and His shed blood did not atone for our sins. The atonement took place in hell through the devil's torturing of Jesus’ spirit for three days and three nights. Unfortunately for Satan, Jesus was taken to hell ‘illegally’ because He had never sinned. This ‘technicality’ enabled God to use His ‘force of faith’ to revive Jesus’ spirit, restore Jesus’ divine nature, and resurrect Jesus’ body. Through the resurrection process Jesus was ‘born again’.


12 When a person is born again they experience exactly what happened to Jesus. Their satanic nature is replaced by God’s divine nature. The transformation is so identical to Jesus’ transformation that Christians become little gods (small “g”) and are as much an incarnation of God as was Jesus.


13 Because Christians are ‘little gods’, they now have access to the ‘God- kind of faith’, which can be used to get virtually anything they want. Christians, rather than God, have authority in the earth over Satan and sickness and disease. Consequently, believers should never pray God’s will be done.


14 To obtain specific desires, Christians must do three things: (1) loose the power of the “force of faith” by speaking or positively confessing whatever is wanted (e.g., ‘I am healed’, ‘I am not sick’, etc.); (2) believe that whatever has been confessed will definitely be received; and (3) ignore or look beyond the visible reality (i.e, remaining sickness, low finances, etc.) and continue claiming what has been confessed.


15 Everything bad, including poverty and sickness, comes from Satan. God’s people should have a completely blessed life. A Christian not experiencing such a life is either: (1) in sin; or (2) lacking enough faith to bring about what is desired.


16 The power of audible confession is so great that sometimes a person can unknowingly bring tragedy upon themselves by making negative confessions. For example, a woman who is mugged may have actually caused that mugging if at any time prior to the experience she made comments like, ‘I live in such a dangerous part of the city that I'm afraid I’ll be mugged’. The woman should have been saying, ‘I will not be mugged’. Similarly, someone who jokingly says ‘I feel like I'm going crazy’ may actually become insane.

The above 16 points show how the word of faith teachers have corrupted the truth contained in the Word of God into gross heresy. I cannot say that all those caught up in the word-faith movement are unsaved but thay are surely following heretical teachings.

 

Also can add the seduction of christianity by dave hunt, and a Different Gospel by DR McConnell

Those authors make it very clear that modern theology of this movemnent from an EW Kenyon, NOT the Bible!

ALL of them claim divine revelation from God in their doctrines, so they could oNLY be seen as heretics!

 

I believe the writers I cited mentioned Kenyon as the grandaddy of this heresy.

I have read Hint's book A Woman Rides the Beast. I have A Different Gospel but it got lost on my book shelf and I haven't read it. Thanks for the reminder!

One only need look at the grinning speaker, Joel Osteen, in the BB arena to see how popular this movement. If pastors don't warn of this heresy it can only grow.

 

that book was written by an oral roberts Grad , as part of His masters thesis, and since he is in pentacostal type circles, his critics could not claim that he was not "one of us!"

that one does best job of documenting where and how this movement arised, others better for their theology!

Show how this goes, remember that Jack deere at one time ministered int he church onc emember of before becoming a Baptist, and he was a professor at DTS, bastion of baptist thinking, who went off to become a Vineyard pastor instead!

 

Charismatic Chaos.

 

lets hope that one of us as the gift of tongues to inteprete what is being said!

 

Along this same line, I always thought it to be somewhat of a mystery as to why Oral Roberts, (who openly and for many, many years was quite bold in contending that HE [OR] very definitely and unquestionably possessed ["Directly from God the HS Himself!!"] the so-called "Gift" of physical healing) somehow felt (I would suppose, here again, by a "Direct Calling" from God Himself....) to open a medical center/hospital right next to ORU.





















I imagine that this medical center/hospital's principle purpose was/is that of providing physical healing for those unfortunate ones who just somehow are so "In-the-flesh" that they aren't able to muster up enough of the "Right kind" of faith to avail themselves of OR's "Your's-For-the-asking/taking" HS-anointed so-called "'Gift' of 'Divine Healing.'" ......
































........Yeah......Right!!!!!!! :tear: :tear: :tear: