What is Hyper-Calvinism?

[Iconoclast]

I'm not sure I'm following you.. are you saying that we are 'not' saved by faith.. ie.. faith has nothing to do with our salvation.

Additionally, please note that the blood of the Cross in not imparted to anyone apart from faith for it is by faith the propitiation is applied man - Rom 3:25 (maybe I misunderstood you there as well)

Hello Allan,
I believe all of salvation is the gift of God,
grace, repentance,regeneration,. faith, belief [the ability to savingly believe],sanctification,glorification

So.....God in mercy is able to give these to those who do not live long enough , or are born without the natural capacity to be drawn savingly to God by the Spirit working in the unseen realm.
Jeremiah and John the baptist are used to illustrate this...not just chosen as prophets...but chosen from the womb to be His children.
As we know salvation is a supernatural work....
a donkey does not normally speak, a big fish does not normally swallow a person,and vomit them out
dead corpses do not walk out of the grave if you call their name

Allan.....to simplify. I fully believe in the biblical teaching of election unto salvation.
Salvation is the blood of the covenant death being applied to these elect persons along with the imputed righteousness of the active obediance of the Lord Jesus Christ given to us.
The confession properly states that God will save all His elect,

So.....if God has elected any or all persons unable to be called by the normal outward means.......he will apply to all those given to Him by the Father...the work of the cross.
The Great Shepherd seeks and saves the seed of Abraham...wherever they are,and in whatever condition they are in.
He will seek them in the womb, outside the womb, in the university, or the mental health facility.....He will save all His elect ,by the one work of the cross...he will save all His elect..He is not willing that any of His elect perish, but that all come to repentance....

they are all conceived ,dead in sin, and need His mercy.:thumbs:

Faith is the instrumetality to access the perfect work. Saving faith is God given.....not inherent in the sinner

God does not plow a field he is not going to plant in. If God has purposed to save any and all of these persons it is by design...not by reaction to them, or somehow they were innocent...they are all guilty.

 

[Allan]

Icon..

I can see nothing in the above which actually answers my question nor addresses my statement about the propitiation being applied by faith.
You state "the blood of the covenant death being applied to these elect persons along with the imputed righteousness of the active obediance of the Lord Jesus Christ given to us."... but do not address the fact that it is only imparted to us after we believe.

My point is to find out what you hold on this, more concisely.

Do you hold that the propitiation (blood covenant) is applied prior to faith?
Do you hold that salvation is by faith, through grace?

In other words.. do you believe God will save a person a part from faith?

While I agree salvation is by design but is not the reaction ALSO by design.

 

[JesusFan]

Icon..

I can see nothing in the above which actually answers my question nor addresses my statement about the propitiation being applied by faith.
You state "the blood of the covenant death being applied to these elect persons along with the imputed righteousness of the active obediance of the Lord Jesus Christ given to us."... but do not address the fact that it is only imparted to us after we believe.

My point is to find out what you hold on this, more concisely.

Do you hold that the propitiation is applied prior to faith?
Do you hold that salvation is by faith, through grace?

other than PB, don't ALL Bapptists posting here on BB affirm that faith is the 'trigger" that gets the regeneration purchased by Jesus Christ for His Elect thru the death and atonement wrought in the Cross?

 

[Allan]

other than PB, don't ALL Bapptists posting here on BB affirm that faith is the 'trigger" that gets the regeneration purchased by Jesus Christ for His Elect thru the death and atonement wrought in the Cross?

That was what I was attempting to know.. as it was in regard to his statement to Webdog:
.

salvation is the covenant mercy of God, granted and graced by God to his elect...whereby the guilty sinner [romans5] chosen by By God is covered by the blood of the cross

This is why I was asking him to clarify.. he might have been addressing Webs statement of no original sin, but the statement seemed not to include faith as the vehicle of salvation..

However with that statement, I also wanted to know about his position when the propitiation is applied as it plays a rather large role there depending on the answer.

 

[JesusFan]

That was what I was attempting to know.. as it was in regard to his statement to Webdog:
.
This is why I was asking him to clarify.. he might have been addressing Webs statement of no original sin, but the statement seemed not to include faith as the vehicle of salvation..

However with that statement, I also wanted to know about his position when the propitiation is applied as it plays a rather large role there depending on the answer.

Is it applied at moment of faith in work/person of jesus Christ?

or is that from our viewpoint, from that of Gods...

Either from eternity, applied to elect of God, or to those that he forsaw placing their faith in christ?

Can there be 2 times, based on whose perspective?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"We" [who can understand words/faith] are saved by God's grace alone. Part of the "salvaiton package" is our response to regeneration = repentance and faith.

But there are some elect who cannot understand, who are mentally incapable or, an infants, not developed yet to know the left from the right.

They, too, are saved by God's grace alone. Their response will, of course, be different than the "we" who can repent/believe. But they are nonetheless regenerated and bound for eternity with God.

Could you show that to me in scripture? I ask because I lost a child. Thanks

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF,

Unashamedly, I don't blend it, I say it. Salvation (IMO) is a blending of God's offer of grace and our response to that offer in faith. And I will state again, this in NO WAY impugns the sovereignty of God (again IMO).

Quantum, do you consider yourself an Arminian? Also, I didnt say all.

 

[JesusFan]

Could you show that to me in scripture? I ask because I lost a child. Thanks

Matthew 18:10

Jesus addresses this!

 

[psalms109:31]

Righteous

"Father, give us courage to change what must be altered, serenity to accept what cannot be helped, and the insight to know the one from the other."

Some times we must just trust in God that He will be just in the matters that we do not understand this side of heaven; That we put in His hands and continue in the direction God has for us through Jesus Christ.

 

[Winman]

other than PB, don't ALL Bapptists posting here on BB affirm that faith is the 'trigger" that gets the regeneration purchased by Jesus Christ for His Elect thru the death and atonement wrought in the Cross?

No, several Calvinists here have said the opposite, that regeneration triggers faith.

This cannot be, because believeing takes real time. To believe the gospel you must first hear it which takes time. You must process what you have heard to understand it, which takes time. Then you must make that decision to trust.

I am not saying this takes a great deal of time, but it does take time. If during this time you are regenerated, then you are a regenerated unbeliever! This is nonsensical and in contradiction to all scripture, there is no such thing as a regenerated unbeliever. And justification is through faith, so you would also be a regenerated sinner with everlasting life. Again, this contradicts all scripture. No one can be regenerated, having eternal life until their sins are forgiven, and no one can be forgiven until they believe. Therefore one must first believe to be regenerated. All scripture supports this, no scripture supports regeneration preceding faith.

I challenge any Calvinist to show even one verse that shows regeneration preceding faith.

 

[JesusFan]

No, several Calvinists here have said the opposite, that regeneration triggers faith.

This cannot be, because believeing takes real time. To believe the gospel you must first hear it which takes time. You must process what you have heard to understand it, which takes time. Then you must make that decision to trust.

I am not saying this takes a great deal of time, but it does take time. If during this time you are regenerated, then you are a regenerated unbeliever! This is nonsensical and in contradiction to all scripture, there is no such thing as a regenerated unbeliever. And justification is through faith, so you would also be a regenerated sinner with everlasting life. Again, this contradicts all scripture. No one can be regenerated, having eternal life until their sins are forgiven, and no one can be forgiven until they believe. Therefore one must first believe to be regenerated. All scripture supports this, no scripture supports regeneration preceding faith.

I challenge any Calvinist to show even one verse that shows regeneration preceding faith.

How about verses in Titus 3:4-6/John 1:9-13

Ask and ye shall find!

 

[kyredneck]

Could you show that to me in scripture? I ask because I lost a child. Thanks

"David's Response to His Son's Sickness and Death

2 Samuel 12:15-23, "And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth. And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them. And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead? But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead. Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat. Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."
http://ecclesia.org/truth/davids_son.html

 

[Don]

The challenge: "show even one verse that shows regeneration preceding faith."
JF's response:
How about verses in Titus 3:4-6/John 1:9-13

Ask and ye shall find!

Beg to differ on John 1:9-13; (12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born...of God.

They had to receive Him to be given the power to become the sons of God, to be born of Him.

 

[webdog]

Based on Tom Butler's short but to the point definition (which no cal here disagreed with ) and based on the answers of a handful here that faith is not required for salvation, only "mercy" it is safe to say there are more hyper-cal's than even they realize, proving my point.

 

[kyredneck]

They'reEverywhere!They'reEverywhere!They'reEverywhere!

 

[Dr. Bob]

We are saved/made a new creation/born again/regenerated by grace alone. It is 100% God's work and 0% mine.

The reason my part is 0%? I can do no righteous thing in the sight of God. I "must" be born again before I can do anything righteous. (Jesus reminded Nick of that, John 3).

With an invisible change within I am a child of God and WILL repent, believe, call on the Lord. If I don't have faith/repentance, it shows I have NOT received God's grace and been regened by His Spirit.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon..

I can see nothing in the above which actually answers my question nor addresses my statement about the propitiation being applied by faith.
You state "the blood of the covenant death being applied to these elect persons along with the imputed righteousness of the active obediance of the Lord Jesus Christ given to us."... but do not address the fact that it is only imparted to us after we believe.

My point is to find out what you hold on this, more concisely.

Allan,
I did respond to this point when I said this;

I believe all of salvation is the gift of God,
grace, repentance,regeneration,. faith, belief [the ability to savingly believe],sanctification,glorification

Let me try to clarify Allan. Because I understand the death of The Lord Jesus was a covenant death on behalf of all the elect....that he actually accomplished redemption for them this work was completed as our Lord said it was finished.
Because the elect are in the covenant of redemption,these benefits come to them by Spirit baptism.....when he died we died Romans 6:1-17.
At pentecost the complete church was baptized into Christ....a once for all time event.....God has declared the church to be His eternal people...the essence of covenant...I will be their God, They shall be my people.

one Lord , one faith, one baptism
When one of these elect sinners is quickened by The Holy Spirit and indwelt, the perfect work of the cross having already been completed is now put to this sinners account...translating him from darkness to light.

saving regeneration, repentance, faith, belief , are all given to the sinner at regeneration....... so it could be an old person, or an infant.
saving faith is not inherent in a sinner....it is a gift,it is a spiritual enablement that the sinner can exercise after it is given to him...

men have a natural kind of faith...they can use that to trust to go on an airplane..trusting that the plane might actually get where it is supposed to.

salvation...and saving faith is never said to be ...because of faith......

it is always said to be by faith, or through faith...never be
cause of faith.

Do you hold that the propitiation (blood covenant) is applied prior to faith?

The Father accepted the perfect work in Heaven already...and for that matter it was eternally a perfect work....before the foundation of the world, jn17 in the fulness of time gal 4;4 God the Father sending the Son...

I believe as I said above...all men are born sinners and guilty in Adam

the whole of salvation is applied .....when it pleased God. That is how Paul described it...when it pleased God to reveal His Son in me!

The actual moment is known by God....ordinarily through the normal means of preaching and receiving the gospel...the sinner once quickened and enabled by God

repents and believes the gospel,
through God given faith he exercises through prayer a laying hold of the promises...he begins to demonstrate this saving faith...by good works which God has also ordained.....he waits for the Lord from heaven..

mentally handicapped...or elect infants dying in infancy cannot do all of these things during this life...nevertheless because salvation is 100% of God they are granted all of the same things that all believers have in the eternal state.

think of it this way Allan......they will be full persons...they will be given the ability to speak and praise God {without going to school }
they will be granted a perect understanding of all things as we all will be.
Do you hold that salvation is by faith, through grace?

In another thread I mentioned that saving faith.....is by or through...NEVER because of faith.....to check and see it ....you study the greek words

dia pistaous......dia pistin [not spelled right}

one means by or through....the other would be because of...

In other words.. do you believe God will save a person a part from faith?

No.....but because it is a God given faith..an infant, or mentally handicapped person can be given it as any of us are....the difference is we get to exercise it ..in this age and the age to come...they ,in the age to come.

Someone like Wd who denies we all died in Adam at one point in time....has to deny that we are sinners at conception, or has to hold out for a false age of accountability heresy.....but not so those who reconcile all the verses together.
While I agree salvation is by design but is not the reaction ALSO by design.

Well....sure.....once God does His saving work in us.....then we work ,we believe, we repent daily, through faith we pray believing, we witness, we urge sinners to turn......trusting that it is God working in us..to will and to do of His good pleasure! I am confident we are mostly agreed on this part.


Allan....I am confident that you would not butcher someones soul. I mean if I met someone in Dakota...i would be confident to send them your way, knowing you would speak to them of sin, repentance, salvation by the blood, sanctification by the word,etc.
We do not always agree...but I know you would not trick them with some kind of easy believism junk..that leads to false converts.
I know you would seek to ground them in the word.
I just believe it would all be more effective if we were closer on some of these things....well that is why we post back and forth!

 

[webdog]

Iconoclast, you throw the heresy tag around way too loosely. An age of accountability has not been deemed heresy by anyone but you. James 1:15.

It also would help those reading to use the quote function properly, I don't know who said what with all of the colored quotes.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, you throw the heresy tag around way too loosely. An age of accountability has not been deemed heresy by anyone but you. James 1:15.

It also would help those reading to use the quote function properly, I don't know who said what with all of the colored quotes.

wd....allan i tried to leave in black print...
i am typing challenged..very lame I confess to that.

I do believe it to be a heretical denial of romans 5....so i call it like I see it.
I know you do not share that opinion WD.....sorry about that....but I stand by what I have posted.Others do believe what I do on that...but I will stand on it because of what I see the scriptures teach,not what the others say....

I tried to post for you weeks ago a link showing that we all died....it is a point action....in other words at the point Adam died....we all died in Him.
I did not write it,,,but that is what it says...so I believe it.
Do you remember it? I will look it up later if you want me to.

Wd our own sin that we commit does bring forth death..that is true.....but it does not deny that we died in Adam already....

We sinned in Him...we also commit our own sins....

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF,

Unashamedly, I don't blend it, I say it. Salvation (IMO) is a blending of God's offer of grace and our response to that offer in faith. And I will state again, this in NO WAY impugns the sovereignty of God (again IMO).

OK then read Dr. Bob's post....I believe # 56 & tell me if you agree/disagree