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What is Justice?
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
When someone commits murder -- JUSTICE demands TWO things.
#1. Remove the criminal from open society so that he can not continue his crime spree.
#2. Remove him in such a way that "the form of removal" is a "dissincentive" to anyone else weighing the options cost/benefit for that same crime.
For example a way to get rid of murderers in Washington D.C is to give them all a palace on their own tropical Island. That removes them from society - but does not do so in a way that is a dissincentive -
in Christ,
Bob
#1. Remove the criminal from open society so that he can not continue his crime spree.
#2. Remove him in such a way that "the form of removal" is a "dissincentive" to anyone else weighing the options cost/benefit for that same crime.
For example a way to get rid of murderers in Washington D.C is to give them all a palace on their own tropical Island. That removes them from society - but does not do so in a way that is a dissincentive -
in Christ,
Bob
I believe there are three different forms of this word justice. Man's judgment which includes toward me or you. Then there is God's judgment. The problem I find with Man’s justice is we have acceptable and unacceptable double standards which seem to make everything I do acceptable.
Example, A black man can call another black man the N word but if another race uses that word…!!!. Ok, that one was out there so let's bring it home to where we live. We have our Church behavior then we have our "other" behavior. If my Brother offends me at Church I have my Church response but if my brother offends me away from Church then I have a more worldly reaction. My sin comes with a disclaimer which makes it ok but your sins? This is what I mean by “toward me or you”.
This carries over into our personal lives. When my child goes to court then the judge should have mercy but when Ted Bundy or some other criminal has his day with Justice then we should all join in lifting the book and assuring he’s hit with every letter of the law. So if all of this is included in Man's justice, your question is valid, what is justice?
God on the other hand plays no favoritism. He is the righteous judge. There is no grey when it comes to God's judgment yet he considers all facts in His final decision. He doesn’t give us what we deserve, and instead, He gives us what we need. This is because he can search our inner most parts and consider things no secular judge can know. Intent, purpose, what sentence you will respond to, etc… He also knows absolute guilt and innocence and no transgression escapes his judging.
According to man’s justice we all must die but God has grace and mercy which said there is hope for sinful man. What is justice? I believe it’s not giving you what you deserve but giving you what you need.
Example, A black man can call another black man the N word but if another race uses that word…!!!. Ok, that one was out there so let's bring it home to where we live. We have our Church behavior then we have our "other" behavior. If my Brother offends me at Church I have my Church response but if my brother offends me away from Church then I have a more worldly reaction. My sin comes with a disclaimer which makes it ok but your sins? This is what I mean by “toward me or you”.
This carries over into our personal lives. When my child goes to court then the judge should have mercy but when Ted Bundy or some other criminal has his day with Justice then we should all join in lifting the book and assuring he’s hit with every letter of the law. So if all of this is included in Man's justice, your question is valid, what is justice?
God on the other hand plays no favoritism. He is the righteous judge. There is no grey when it comes to God's judgment yet he considers all facts in His final decision. He doesn’t give us what we deserve, and instead, He gives us what we need. This is because he can search our inner most parts and consider things no secular judge can know. Intent, purpose, what sentence you will respond to, etc… He also knows absolute guilt and innocence and no transgression escapes his judging.
According to man’s justice we all must die but God has grace and mercy which said there is hope for sinful man. What is justice? I believe it’s not giving you what you deserve but giving you what you need.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
For Justice to exist - you have to have an authorotative "Just Law" that defines penalty for violation.
That law has to be "upheld" for Justice to be done -- washing out the Law is not "Just".
Justice has to do with the laws that are defined and the way in which they are upheld for the good of society.
And that get's to the two points in my earlier post.
God's Mercy on the other hand provides for "forgiveness" but not without PAYING The debt DUE according to the Law otherwise you have "unjust Mercy".
Law without mercy is "unmerciful justice".
God's solution avoids both problems.
Hence in Col 2 "our certificate of DEBT was nailed to the cross" -- the "ticket specifying the debt owed" but NOT "the Law defining what sin IS".
SIN is still SIN. It not "undefined" and it is not now "good to murder".
But the debt is nailed to the cross.
That law has to be "upheld" for Justice to be done -- washing out the Law is not "Just".
Justice has to do with the laws that are defined and the way in which they are upheld for the good of society.
And that get's to the two points in my earlier post.
God's Mercy on the other hand provides for "forgiveness" but not without PAYING The debt DUE according to the Law otherwise you have "unjust Mercy".
Law without mercy is "unmerciful justice".
God's solution avoids both problems.
Hence in Col 2 "our certificate of DEBT was nailed to the cross" -- the "ticket specifying the debt owed" but NOT "the Law defining what sin IS".
SIN is still SIN. It not "undefined" and it is not now "good to murder".
But the debt is nailed to the cross.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
"Justice is the proper administration of laws" according to Blacks Law Dictionary.
Justice has nothing whatsoever to do with mercy that I can see. Justice is blind. Its only obligation is to the administration of law.
Justice has nothing whatsoever to do with mercy that I can see. Justice is blind. Its only obligation is to the administration of law.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: By ‘being blind’ I meant that it is without prejudice and is impartial.
convicted1
Guest
To me, justice is what I'd get if I died lost, by refusing Christ as my Lord and Saviour. Mercy is what I got by accepting Him( I hate that term "accepting Him", because He first has to accept us) as my Lord and Saviour. Either way, we will all get justice...just which side of justice we get, is according to our response to Him(or non-repsonse) when He "calls".
Willis
Willis
Last edited by a moderator:
Punishment that is merited according to law and truth.
The virtue which consists in giving to every one what is his due.
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
PROPITIATION, n. propisia'shon.
1. The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person
Heb 2:17
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
The virtue which consists in giving to every one what is his due.
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
PROPITIATION, n. propisia'shon.
1. The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person
Heb 2:17
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The wrath of God is not against "the World that he So Loved" that HE gave to save.
The wrath of God is against the evil of sin.
God is never "appeased" by Justice. Having the World that "He Loves" be destroyed "does not appease God".
Having His Son tortured "does not appease God".
Having HIMSELF tortured (in the case of Christ) does not "appease God".
I suspect all would agree here.
in Christ,
Bob
The wrath of God is against the evil of sin.
God is never "appeased" by Justice. Having the World that "He Loves" be destroyed "does not appease God".
Having His Son tortured "does not appease God".
Having HIMSELF tortured (in the case of Christ) does not "appease God".
I suspect all would agree here.
in Christ,
Bob
Websters 1828
JUST, a.
7. Conformed to rules of justice;
8. Conformed to truth;
9. True; founded in truth and fact; as a just charge or accusation.
Justice is apart from God but it is also a part of God.
God did not create a bunch of rules and say that is the way things should be. They just are. He is in conformity to it in all he does. He is perfectly just. This is what makes him the only one that can adjudicate justice perfectly.
As believers filled with the Spirit of the perfect being, we are able to discern (or judge) His will. "He that is spiritual, judgeth all things."
This set of truths is what makes Darwinism or Humanism such an afront to God. Truth is removed and justice becomes what man wants it to be. It becomes relative to the whims of society. Also, the Judge himself is removed and man thinks he can do as he pleases or as society allows him.
Many Christians today think that we are seeing this for the first time in history. However, even a basic understanding of history or the bible makes it clear that this is a recurrent theme throughout history. See the world Noah lived in, the book of Judges, the Roman Empire, the French Revolution...
It is a wonderful time to live. The lines are clearly drawn and only a little light brightens up a pitch black room.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Col. 1:9 "For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding"
JUST, a.
7. Conformed to rules of justice;
8. Conformed to truth;
9. True; founded in truth and fact; as a just charge or accusation.
Justice is apart from God but it is also a part of God.
God did not create a bunch of rules and say that is the way things should be. They just are. He is in conformity to it in all he does. He is perfectly just. This is what makes him the only one that can adjudicate justice perfectly.
As believers filled with the Spirit of the perfect being, we are able to discern (or judge) His will. "He that is spiritual, judgeth all things."
This set of truths is what makes Darwinism or Humanism such an afront to God. Truth is removed and justice becomes what man wants it to be. It becomes relative to the whims of society. Also, the Judge himself is removed and man thinks he can do as he pleases or as society allows him.
Many Christians today think that we are seeing this for the first time in history. However, even a basic understanding of history or the bible makes it clear that this is a recurrent theme throughout history. See the world Noah lived in, the book of Judges, the Roman Empire, the French Revolution...
It is a wonderful time to live. The lines are clearly drawn and only a little light brightens up a pitch black room.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Col. 1:9 "For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding"
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
bound said:
Every good and perfect gift comes from the Father above.
All "good justice" derives from God.
All "good mercy" in mankind is derived from God.
All Love - that is pure love, is in fact derived from God.
intelligence, order, etc.
BTW - I just got that book by FLEW on "There is a God" and this is one of the arguments that he and Roy Varghese make proving the existence of God refuting the "new atheists" of today.
Thanks for recommending it. Great book!
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In the order of creation of life on this planet that we see in Genesis each day prepares the way for "what comes next".
God is a God of order, intelligence and design.
God says in Genesis that Abraham kept his laws, statutes and commandments. We have no reason to believe that God would not have prepared the environment with fixed laws of physics, biology, chemistry and morality before creating the first intelligent being in all of His universe.
in Christ,
Bob
God is a God of order, intelligence and design.
God says in Genesis that Abraham kept his laws, statutes and commandments. We have no reason to believe that God would not have prepared the environment with fixed laws of physics, biology, chemistry and morality before creating the first intelligent being in all of His universe.
in Christ,
Bob