What is legalism?

Thank you, Bro. Ricky. It's hard, but I'm trying! And, I really appreciate your time and advice, thanks - sincerely!

 

I attended a United Pentecostal Church for over a year in between leaving the E-Free Church and before starting at the Primitive Baptist Church (even though I never claimed to be Pentecostal).

The standards mentioned on the previous post were pretty much what was practiced at the UPC I attended, however the pastor was not hard-lined about it and I never heard a sermon on any of the "standards". Not being raised in that faith, I owned a TV, wore makeup and did wear slacks (outside of church but never in church), and I also cut my hair. I never received any flack about it, and I wasn't the only one who didn't dress the part.

I don't have a problem if women choose to dress a certain way or don't use makeup, but none of those things has anything to do with salvation, nor does getting rid of your TV make you any more holy; we have the option (and should have the will power to turn it off or change the channel when necessary). I left this church over the "tongues" issue as I also viewed this supposedly NECESSARY part of their salvation plan as a "WORKS-BASED" faith. It totally went against everything I believed as far as what it took to be saved. It was a very narrow and exclusive faith. One that I'm glad I got out of.

 

Even our good, godly standards as practiced in the local New Testament, Bible-believing churches can be legalism if it is done, not as the answer of a good conscience towards GOD in all things - but rather as a device which presupposes that by adhering to them causes GOD to love us more.

I do not believe that I am out of line to suggest that GOD can NEVER love us more than He does.

Furthermore, I suppose that the submission to godly standards of dress and decorum can be labeled legalism is the one "adhering" to them is only doing so as a duty to be performed.

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12:1,2)

 

The fashionable meaning of Legalist is much like the current use of Pharisee.

It is generally applied to Christians who have high, separated standards, by "Christians" who know to do better than they are doing and choose not to. These lables are used in an effort to sooth the consciences of the labler and make them feel like something other than a fence straddling compromiser or a worldly Christian.

Of course....this is just my own humble opinion.

 

How it is used, and what it actually means are not the same thing at all.

Legalism actually means adding anything to salvation to make it worthy or valid

It wouldn't have the same negative connontation if we just said "Those people have strict standards" But say "Those people are legalists!" And it sounds much more like the slam it is often intended to be.

This word has been preverted from it's original meaning. But that's language for you.

 

"This word has been preverted from it's original meaning. But that's language for you."

"This word has been preverted from it's original meaning."

AMEN!

But that's not language for you.....

that's liberals for you!

So how it is used really does play a role in determining what is "meant" by the word.

There are several words the liberals have perverted.......for example:

gay used to mean happy.....

now it is another word for a sodomite.

and the beat goes on.............

 

Interesting take. Language has always evolved over time. That is the natural order of societal progression...which believe it or not is a definition of "liberal".

I'll start a new thread on this...very interesting indeed.

 

"societal progression"

let's see.......

progression of society

progression.....to move forward

society......collective group of people

for the sake of this post.....I will define
"society" as the USA.

2000....

acceptance of homosexuality
corruption of government leaders
corruption of big business
bigger prisions
more abortions
more teenage mothers
higher divorce rate
Charismatic movement
New Age movement

This seems to be the "progression" of our society.

And we would call that progress?

Words.......

Don't say it all.

 

I think when we focus on the negative, we aren't being good representatives of God in this world to unbelievers. Unbeleivers need to see Christ in all of us. When you give more thought to the negative...what are we saying to them? How do they see us? I would rather count my blessings and see what God hath done, as the song goes.

I'm praying for you. Sincerely.

In Christ,
Laurenda

P.S. I think it was pretty clear that I was speaking of the natural progression of language, and not any of the things you suggested.


editted to reword so as not to offend. Psalm 119:165

[ April 28, 2003, 02:33 AM: Message edited by: Wisdom Seeker ]

 

wisdomseeker writes

I find your post to be so sad, have you given up all hope? I think when we focus on the negative, we aren't being good stewards for God in this world. I'm trying to be a light in this world. It's not always easy, but by grace it is possible. Don't be a contentious Christian...ubeleivers need to see Christ in you and I. When you give more thought to the negative...what are you saying to them?

BBB:

Living in the world and not being cognizant of the negative is surely not what the Word meant when it wrote that "we are not 'ignorant' of Satan's devices".

An analogy would be to live in the desert and to romp and play amongst the cacti and pay no mind to the coiled up rattlesnakes resting in the shaded areas. When you get bit, is it because you had a carefree spirit, or because you were not living a separated life from the snares of the desert?

 

Lace, of the things you listed, one of the most dangerous on the list is the "Charismatic Movement." Very few of Satan's devices have caused more division and more confusion amongst the ranks of shallow Christians than the distortion of the HOLY SPIRIT's ministry in our present day Church age.

It is placing personal experience and feelings above the Word of GOD, and thereby deluding people into thinking they are saved when they are not.

 

Salvation is by grace alone. If you say that a person can't be charasmatic and still be saved...you just proved what a legalist is. Adding something to salvation to make it valid. It is my observation that many men and woman that belong to charasmatic churches hold the word of God most holy and adhere to it strongly. You may not believe this to be possible. But your opinion doesn't change what is.

When the Jews said that gentiles had to be circumsized or their salvation wasn't valid in the Bible. This legalism was rebuked as being in error.

Good illustration. Did you mean to do that?

In Christ,
Laurenda

 

Shallow Christians are those that bite at every wind of doctrine that comes along and thereby lose the peace that salvation brings.

People that are not saved that get sucked into the movement - experience some so-called "spiritual gift" are from then to the end of their life convinced that they are saved and have no need to hear otherwise.

How do shallow Christians lose the peace of their salvation? Almost immediately they begin to doubt they are saved because they haven't experienced something that others "supposedly" have or they are overwhelmed by false teachers that start telling them that they can lose their salvation.

Some (I said some) Charismatic groups insist that a person must prove they are saved by speaking in tongues.

How you, wisdom seeker, twisted my words into saying that I believe Charismatics can't be saved is shocking to me. I don't believe that, as my comments above show, and I have never taught that.

And my goodness, where did you come up with the circumcision angle?

But I'm glad you were able to enjoy a good laugh at mine and the truth's expense.

 

WisdomSeeker, this "is" a forum for Fundamental Christians, so I should not think it strange that topics of interest to Fundamentalism should be discussed openly here. Are you a fundamentalist?

 

Wisdom seeker...

your post to Lace...has bothered me...since I read it...I know Lace...from other MB's...and talk with her often...she has a great love for life...and for the Lord...and sees beauty in His creation...reconizes...that all good and wonderful things come from the Lord...He is at the very center of her life...

However...she is not blind to the coiled snakes, wolves in sheeps clothing...false teachers and preachers...

It is good to know these things...and Lace does...

I have always trusted her discernment...she is sharp as a tack...in that area...


Y'Israel...

 

Laurenda

"I think it's pretty clear how you feel about the world. I think that's kind of sad, that you can't focus on the possitive, but wish to dwell on the negative worldly things instead of the blessings God has given each of us....you are saved."

~~~~~~~~~~
Laurenda.....

Indeed, Laurenda, I am a born-again , washed in the blood, hanky-waving , shout when I feel like it, King James Bible, saved by grace, hallelujah child of God!!!!!!!!

~~~~~~~~~
Laurenda.....

"(I'm guessing")

~~~~~~~~

I'm sure! Eternally sure.....

Your "I'm guessing" sounded rather snide....but I'm going to let that slide. I perceive you are kind of high strung.

~~~~~~~~~~

Laurenda....

"We have God's word, we have the love of fellow believers, we have family and freinds and hopefull good Pastors to listen to on Sunday morning."

~~~~~~~~~

Yes we do, Laurenda. We have God's Word on those things......but we have God's Word on a lot of other things, too.

God gives us warnings.....BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHERS. He tells us they WILL be among us. And you know what? They are. And you know what else? There are a lot of people standing in line to be deceived........(all too often they are wearing their tinted glasses....seeing only what they want to see.)

God instructs us to come out of the world and be separate from it....because we are not of the world. (that's a rabbit....I'll not give chase to it here.)

So you feel "sad" for me.......? Because of my negative view????????? Laurenda....it's time to remove those rose-colored glasses. The world is a very ugly place and it's getting uglier every day.

Language reflects the change of the world, Laurenda. You said yourself it evolves with the world......the world is going to hell in a hand basket.

That is not "my negative view". That is fact.

~~~~~~~

Laurenda....
"I find your post to be so sad, have you given up all hope?"

~~~~~~~~~

Absolutely not! But I see what is before me, too.
Your profile indicates you are from CA. Are you not aware of the rampant homosexuality in this country? Do you remember why God destroyed Sodom?

~~~~~~~~
Laurenda.....

" I think when we focus on the negative, we aren't being good stewards for God in this world. "

~~~~~~~~~

God has called us out of the world.....and we are to reach out to the world. There is absolutely no way to reach out to a dying and lost world without "seeing" what is in it. Laurenda, have you been to a women's prison lately? I highly recommend the experience. Shine your light there. Talk about darkness.......and thirst.....and a place where hope is all but gone.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Laurenda....."I'm trying to be a light in this world. It's not always easy, but by grace it is possible."

~~~~~~~~

Amen to that sister. Amen.

~~~~~~~~~~

Laurenda...." Don't be a contentious Christian"

~~~~~~~

I think that may be "the pot calling the kettle black."

(Statements like that tend to make one sound more like they have arrived and left everyone else behind than that they are seeking.)

~~~~~~~

Laurenda......"ubeleivers need to see Christ in you and I. When you give more thought to the negative...what are you saying to them?"

~~~~~~

yes.....unbelievers need to see Christ in you and I. Unbelievers also must see their need. And we have to see their need.....

And a person has to have their head buried in the sand not to see the downward spiral of the world today. Are we supposed to pretend everything is hunky-dorrie? Come on, Laurenda.....Do you live in the real world?

~~~~~~~~~~
Laurenda.....

"I think it was pretty clear that I was speaking of the natural progression of language, and not any of the things you suggested."

~~~~~~~

Why do you suppose there is a "natural progression of language"? Do you not think the things I have suggested have any bearing on the natural progression? Or maybe language just evolves because...........
~~~~~~~~~
Laurenda....."I'm praying for you.

In Christ,
Laurenda"
~~~~~~~~~~~

I appreciate your prayers.....I really do. But your condscending undertone gives question to your sincerity.

It could be time to wake up.....separation of language and "state" is not realistic.

 

to quote someone...and I forget their name...
roughly they said...

"If Jesus does not return soon...an apology will be owed to Sodom and Gomorrah..."

we have hit that level of evil...and moved past it...

btw...the men who crowded around Lot's house...demanding the Visitors be brought out...did not want to play cards with them...they wanted to "PLAY" with them...

I would remind us all of the...command of Jesus Christ...our Lord and Savior...

to preach and teach the Gospel to all people...
that involves seeing the truth...both of the Bible...and of the world...knowing how to be in the world but not of it...

and it most certainly involves going out into the world...for the world is not going to come to us...

Like the song says...Take your candle...into the darkness...go light the world...

I want to set it afire...with the Love of Jesus Christ!!!


so fire up your faith...people...take off those rose colored glasses...pick up your swords...put on the Whole Armour of God...we have much work to do...!!!

and time grows short...tickticktick...

 

Acts 15:1, this seems to be the only thing that was said that was not intended to be confrontational or insulting..Acts 15:1 explains the true meaning of legalism.

I would just like to say one thing to the New people on this thread. Please read the posting rules regarding how to treat others here on the board. I've been here awhile, I am not planning on leaving any time soon...so you can either try to interect respectfully, or I will not answer your comments in the future.

I realize that you haven't had the time to get to know me in the very short time you have been here, but when I say I'm praying for someone, it's because I am. I'm very sincere. If you want to know about my testimony, please ask me without putting me on the defensive...or better yet, let my testimony speak for itself.

When I said "I'm guessing" it's because I don't know you, and am giving you the benifit of the doubt. I am sorry that you assumed I was being snide. That just goes to prove that you don't know me very well.

I've removed that part of my post and reworded it since it offended you. I was trying to encourage you in the Lord. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding in my intention.

In Christ,
Wisdom Seeker

[ April 28, 2003, 02:37 AM: Message edited by: Wisdom Seeker ]

 

Well Hi Lace! You should go to the Welcome forum and introduce yourself. It gives everyone a chance to Welcome you in a personable way.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=2

God Bless
Always
Sherrie

 

Man I hate to do this but once again I must post a let's be nice and play sweet or else message. For those who are new what this means is that I have read some comments here that were unkind and I want it stopped. It also means that from this point further I will go over every post on this thread with a fine tooth comb and I will not tolerate snide comments. A very important rule on the board is to show grace to others so please do so. Thanks Murphy