What is my sin?

If by outside sources you mean Scripture, then yes I do know God's will on the matter and no I don't pretend.

My use of Scripture actually did not begin with Romans 14. If I remember correctly, I was responding to someone else's use of it. If you follow the discussion, I think page 2, I based my statements on Scripture.

What were you saying about credibility?

 

This is actually true of the critics as well. They have this "knowledge" of the evil associations of the beat, which others are ignorant of, and have always tried to force it on the younger crowd. And actually, the older critics (including the leaders) were the ones who were supposedly the truly "more mature".
The people claiming to be "offended" must have a sensible claim. In fact, rather than a genuine personal spiritual conviction, it seems in this issue the music critics are bent on stamping out of existence altogether a whole range of music largely because of the culture its elements came from, or because it's not what they are used to, or because they thought any amount of physical pleasure was bad! Younger generations questioned this and then went and did whatever they felt was right. Both went about it the wrong way!The Biblical way to resolve this would have been to all sit down and discuss it prayerfully as brethren, but the problem was that those favoring the old ways were usually totally unreasonable, and did not even believe in discussing or debating, so actually, the brunt of the blame for this discord actually falls more on the traditionalists! If leaders and others on the conservative side supposedly knew scripture so much, then they should have been the ones to have handled this scripturally from the beginning! (Instead, they allowed emotion to take completely over, thus setting the stage for one of the very things they criticize CCM fans for— choosing music based on emotion and feelings!)

Mind altering drugs would fall under the same category as drunkenness in Eph.5:18, and is directly condemned as "sorcery" in Rev.9:21 (Gk.pharmakia). The ban on music has no comparable scriptural support and is based purely on conjecture (science says this, people's testimony says that, the rock musicians and others admit the other). You have said rock and rap are "sin", but I see not scriptural
"principle" even, other than people's own personal associations and opinions extended to universality.
As for "asking God/The Holy Spirit about it", since this is an issue where people are charging something with sin, and it can be used sinfully and lead weak people into sin, and is not directly covered in the Bible, is the right way tyo handle it. (and this is what people on both sides should have been doing rather than making an assumprion and trying to force it on everyone else)
(BTW, I thought the original statement about "asking The Holy Spirit" referred to giving into the "sensual" temptation of having a Butterfinger.)

 

Eric B, I think you missed a couple of my points.

1. I do not consider music to be merely preference. Therefore, I never appeal to Romans 14 to deal with it.

2. I have mentioned Eph. 5:19. Therefore, I did draw my conclusions from that (whether you agree or not is another issue).

3. You still did not provide a direct statement that says "smoking dope is sin". I know it is a sin. I would go the same route you did. But if you noticed, you had to appeal to things that are taught and not a direct statement.

It is no different for me to appeal to Eph. 5:19 and use that as a guideline.

The problem is that people want to listen to the stuff. They really don't care what you say. Don't believe me? Just read some of the posts.

 

how about proving from the bible that marriage to 10 year olds is sinful? if something is not explicitly spelled out, does that always make it a mere matter of preference?

[ March 10, 2003, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: timothy - am ha'aretz ]

 

answer: no

 

Hey, great point. I wonder if that falls under Romans 14. Maybe it is a cultural thing.

 

I sure wish I could log in to the MB and edit my posts sometimes. Does anyone have a clue why I can't log in?

are cookies on? i remember pastor bob 63 having a similar problem - he could add posts, but couldn't edit them later. if that's your problem, you may want to contact him. hope this helps....

 

Travelsong...hit the whistle and then maybe you can ask in an email to the webmaster why. Or maybe a moderator can help you that way..

Sherrie

 

Travelsong, from an old lady here -- this is what I told my children and (if that endorsement means anything...) what they shared with their friends.

Think of a line. All the way on one end of the line is praise music, hymns, etc. Obviously glorifying to God. At the other end of the line is the sort of rap and like which encourages rape, murder, etc. Obviously satanic.

And then you have an entire line in between. Folk music probably falls near the center, depending on what it is talking about. Negro Spirituals and such are much closer to the 'good' side. And there are also some very 'classic' songs ('Mack the Knife', 'Blueberry Hill', etc.) which are pretty far to the negative side.

So where do you draw the line?

Go back to the two Great Commandments. Love God. Love your neighbor.

The love God songs are clearly on the 'good side'. Hate God songs are clearly on the 'bad side.' So that part can be called sin, right? It disobeys the first commandment and the first Great Commandment.

But what about that majority of the line in the middle which are 'people' songs?

If they obey the Second Great Commandment, they encourage, uplift, share history, create humor, teach, inspire (as in 'get up and get moving and quit sitting on your behind', not inspire as in the biblical meaning) -- that sort of thing. This kind of music is OBEDIENT to the second Great Commandment!

No matter what style of music it is.

But if the music -- no matter what style it is -- is encouraging sexual responses or negative feelings or gossip or rebellion or depression or longing after something you haven't got -- that kind of thing -- that's not very good in the way of loving one's neighbor. That sort of music might be considered sin -- but I'm not going to try to judge with a lot of this side -- just mentioning the possibility.

It's kind of like what Jesus said in Matthew 7 about teachers and doctrines -- what kind of fruit you see will tell you what kind of tree it is.

I think everyone knows the musical "The Sound of Music." The songs in that run the gamut almost. If you think about what some of them are saying, some of them are not so good! Here's a few from memory right now:

Theme song: The Sound of Music. Delightful, uplifting, a response from the heart to God's creation and beauty.

How Do You Solve a Problem Like Maria? I loved it. Reminded me of one of my daughters. Not an angel. Not a devil. A girl. A wave that wouldn't be kept on the sand; someone who could throw a whirling dervish out of whirl! It made me look at her with a lot more humor and tolerance.

I Must Have Done Something Good. Very romantic. Horrible message. The message is that you have to do something good in order to deserve the gifts God gives you in life.

My Favorite Things. Cute, good imagery, fun tune -- but everything is physical. It completely avoids any spiritual 'favorite things.'

Edelweiss. I love it. A quiet song, celebrating one little flower. It may not 'bloom and grow forever,' but the message is well-understood.

Climb Ev'ry Mountain. Considered a wonderfully inspirational song, when you listen to it the message is all wrong! "...'til you find your dream..." WHOSE 'dream'? Who are we to follow? For me, this song misses the boat entirely and presents the wrong message.


Now, being as old as I am, I don't know a lot of the modern tunes. So I can't judge them. I know for sure I don't like the boom box bass from cars that is like a small earthquake if you are near them. The strong beat songs are more like a type of hypnosis and that is not good. But I have also been aware of some really cute and/or nice stuff emanating from my 18 year old's room! And I remember not too many years ago when my older daughter demanded that I listen to Butterfly Kisses when it first came out because she knew I would like it. Yeah, I had tears in my eyes....

So is the music honoring the TWO great commandments? It is helping forge a connection between you and God or between you and your neighbor? Great -- listen to your heart's content (but be gentle on your ears, please -- your body is still a temple...).

But if the music is causing you to doubt God, or to have negative feelings about people, turn it off. No matter the style of music, THAT is at least bordering on sin, if not sitting right in the middle of it.

And, when in doubt, ask God. He's got a fair-to-middlin' idea of what is right and wrong...

=============

Edit -- about not being able to edit. Go into your personal profile and on the right you will see "delete cookies". Click on it. That should clear up your computer so you can work everything OK. You will have to log back in, though, so make sure you remember your password!

 

i think certain styles of music have meaning associated with them because of their use in our culture. in this way, musical elements are similar to words. if i want to communicate a message of rebellion, i'm going to use the musical elements which communicate that. same for anger, a feeling of power, disgust, etc. do you think this "musical language" exists? most good artists use this language with great effectiveness, imo.

if, because of our culture, certain styles of music are considered rebellious, angry, or satanic by the general public, it is a sin to be associated with it since we must avoid the appearance of sin.

some of this is cultural, but i think some of it is universal - fast, loud, distorted, beat heavy music has evolved imo because of it's effectiveness for communicating the typical messages of rock and roll.

a lot of hard rock communicates a feeling of power, anger, and rebellion. as you know, the last thing we need to feel as christians is more prideful, angry, or rebelious.

music, good music, communicates emotion, and i think it is sinful to wallow in certain emotions.

will it help me to become a humble human being if i often listen to angry, powerful, or cocky sounding music? will it help me to trust in the lord if i often listen to unsettling music, or music that powerfully communicates yearing/unfulfilled desire?

anything that separates us from god, or the kind of people he wants us to be, is sinful.

if music was truly neutral, or lacked real power to affect us, it wouldn't be nearly so captivating.

[ March 11, 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: timothy 1969 ]

 

Agreed, Timothy.

 

Dear Helen,
Thanks for the interesting analysis of The Sound of Music songs.

Unfortunately, things are not as simple these days. In the name of Jesus, people have set christian lyrics to secular music. Just name any secular style (rock, metal, jazz, hip hop, etc.) you will be able to find its "christian" equivalent in the christian music shops.

Here's an analogy of what i mean:
Two products on the shelf, Brand X and Brand Y. The contents are the same, the packaging is the same. When you rattle it, they even sound the same. Actually, it is even manufactured be the same guy, Mr. S.A.Tan. However, Mr. Christian insists that brand X is better than Brand Y because the words on the box say such: Brand X, and the other Brand Y. Does the label make the product itself any different?

Do the lyrics make it acceptable to GOd, and thus, christians?

You will cry, Helen, if you were to see the name of Jesus screamed in rebellion at a Christian rock concert. You will cry when you see the kids jumping and slamming their bodies at each other. You will cry when you realize that they think they are doing this in the name of Jesus Christ, but this is not the same Jesus of the Bible! You will cry, as i did, but tears of sorrow at the confusion and mass delusion of these people who name the name of Christ.

[ March 11, 2003, 05:14 AM: Message edited by: Su Wei ]

 

Travelsong, you must not be reading my posts. I have posted Scripture and given reasons why I object to your kind of music. Bottom line is this: you don't like what I have to say so you ignore it and then say I am not posting anything of relevance.

Just as abortion is murder, so your music is false worship. Many people were struck dead by God for false worship. I think he is at least serious about it.

Until someone actually deals with the Scripture I posted and reasons for rejecting man-exalting worship, I will refrain. I will leave you all to your patting each other on the back.

 

Spoken in heavy Southern drawl: WHAT!? How DARE you set yourself up as GAWD and judge mah PERSONAL relationship with HIM!?

WHO do you think YOU are that you can tell ME which convictions are genu-wyne and spiritual?



Hey, Eric. Always appreciate your input and the way you stick to the subject matter.

I agree with you whole-heartedly on this point. Where we divide is how to discern what is sensible and genuine--at least on this subject. (I, at least, have 1900 years of Christian scholarship and practice on my side. )

I hope you don't mind, but I wanted to satirize the attitude of some have in response to a sensible point from the opposite side.

 

This is the question.

Sherrie </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus often answered leading questions with another question. Su Wei acted with great wisdom and discretion.

 

This stipulation is not Scriptural and one that the Apostle Paul violated in Gal. 5:19-21. (Notice the words and such like. KJV) Paul did not need to specifically state all works of the flesh for those in Galatia to make a judgment about what a work of the flesh is or isn't.

In fact, that kind of thinking (the kind that says something must be explicitly forbidden before it can be judged as fleshly) indicates not one who is concerned with God's perfect will, but one who is concerned more with his own will. It is much like the kid in my sixth-grade class who, when the teacher said "Stop talking," whispered, "She didn't say anything about laughing!" Of course I thought that was funny and we both were sent to the principal's office. Guess how much weight that little quip carried with the principal.

The truth is, we knew what the teacher really meant.

Whether one agrees with another's exact delineation between sensual and non-sensual music one cannot rationally reject the fact that some music (style—not words) is like drunkenness and revellings.