What is necessary to become saved?

[J. Jump]

did you even read my post? doesn't look like it.

Give me a break.

there is no scripture for those.

If there is no Scripture to back up your theology then your theology is flawed and why would you keep believing it. There is no Scripture that says we have to prove anything to anyone. So why tell people they do? There is no Scripture that says you are saved by grace through faith and works, so why tell people they have to have works to be saved.

and im not saying there is am i. no. didnt think so.

No you are not and that is exactly my point. You are trying to push a man-made theology that is exactly opposite of the clear teaching of the Bible.

we aren't here to prove to men that we are truly saved.

Then why keep pushing a theology that says I have to prove my Christianity to you and other Lordship salvation folks by works?

THEY WILL DESIRE TO HAVE THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT.

If that is true and you are so adamant about it then provide the Scripture reference that says so and let's deal with Scripture and not Gekko says so, so it must be.

i know that scripture is talking to believers about false prophets.

Then quit trying to make that Scripture say what Gekko wants it to say and just let it say what it says.

if you do not have the fruits of the spirit as proof of a true repentance then the world will look at you and think you are one of its own and will not hate you.

So? Who cares? The carnal Christian is probably glad that is the case.

By the way as just a side point to this statement. If you will study out persecution in the NT especially it wasn't the "world" that gave John the Baptist, Christ, the apostles and disciples the most problem. It was actually saved folks. It was "friendly" fire. That could be a whole other topic, but I thought I would throw that in.

we dont need to prove to anything,

Again if it is not a requirement and the Bible doesn't specify then why are you saying that Christians that don't live a Christian life aren't really Christian.

Once again you haven't answered the question of how it is that you can know whether or someone is saved or not, because you don't have the ability to look into another person's heart. Salvation is a matter of the spirit. That is something that can't be seen. You can't see whether or not someone's spirit has been made alive. Once again it's arrogant on the part of the Lordship salvation folks to even think they can know someone is saved or not.

WHO ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT DENY THEM BY THEIR LIFESTYLE.

That is probably a very true statement, but it doesn't prove anything. I absolutely agree that living the life is critical, but it is not a guarantee to happen. Ephesians 2:10 tells us this.

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but BE YE TRANSFORMED BY THE RENEWING OF YOUR MIND, that ye may PROVE WHAT IS THAT GOOD, AND ACCEPTABLE, AND PERFECT, WILL OF GOD."

That is what we are SUPPOSED to do. It's not a guarantee that it will happen. We are supposed to die to self daily and take up our cross daily, but it is not a guarantee that it is going to happen.

 

[gekko]

im not telling you that you have to prove your salvation. im not saying that anyone has to prove anything. i said that in my last post. obviously you didnt read that part.

you have quite the relaxed faith i see.
"its not a guarantee that it will happen"

i know only God knows the heart of man.
tell me then - how could the servants of the owner of the field notice which were tears and which were wheat? they knew who was false and who weren't. they could tell BY THEIR FRUITS. they were bad fruits.

look. ya either all for God or you not. ya either got good fruit or you dont. there is no grey area's here. its all black and white. life or death. get it?

"Again if it is not a requirement and the Bible doesn't specify then why are you saying that Christians that don't live a Christian life aren't really Christian."
why? because by their fruits we will know them. right? bible says to put on the Lord Jesus Christ. also, "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ DEPART FROM INIQUITY." that also helps with the, only God truly knows the heart of man.

yes. only God TRULY knows the heart of man. but we can see if they are either tears or wheat.

 

[J. Jump]

Once again here's a problem that you have with your analogy. It wasn't the wheat that recognized the tares it was the servants. You are again comparing apples and oranges.

You as a Christian are either a wheat or a tare in your analogy. And the wheat didn't call out the tare.

It's not the Christians job to decide who or who is not saved.

And just for the record the wheat and the tares parable isn't even talking about saved and unsaved individuals. It's talking about Christians and whether or not they are fruitful.

So there again a passage that proves what I've been saying. Works are not a guarantee. There are those that will be found fruitless at the judgment and then there will be others that are found fruitful, some more than others.

Again we need to stop pushing this man-made philosophy on folks. We just need to take people at their word. If someone says I have accepted Jesus and His substitutionary death then we need to treat them as a brother/sister in Christ.

And if we see something in their life that is outside of the Christian walk, instead of just writing them off as a non-Christian, we in love need to share with them God's truth and be an instrument that God can use to get them back on track. Just as when you or I stray off the path we need to have someone in love be an instrument of God so He can use them to draw us back onto the straight path.

We need to spend more time discipling those that say they are Christians then worry whether or not they truly are. That's not our job so let's quit pretending like it is.

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by Eric B:
I'm terribkly sorry about all of this. This board is slowing down, and sometimes when you don't see the "message posted", it has not posted yet (ANd I did not want to have to type and put together all of that again).
And then it kept freezing down, so it wouldn't even let me delete the excess posts in time. (then when I went back instead of retry, the changes did't go through.

I'll bet all those pages and pages of SDA propaganda (and some others) being posted are what are clogging up the server.

Im sorry, I will make monumental efforts to cut my propaganda messages in half.

But you know how us SDA Cult-types are.

We are the ones who caused everything from the war in Iraq, to Environmental problems and all sorts of other things like that, and its hard to break old habits.

Claudia

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Eric B:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> There is just one baptism. The baptism that puts us into Christ. The baptism that washes away our sins. The baptism that is for the forgiveness of sins.

I Cor 12:13, "For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body". This is exactly what happened in Acts 2. Peter was speaking by inspiration of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4). They were baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38, 41). They were added to the Church (Acts 2:41, 47). There is no doubt their baptism in Acts 2 was in water.

Let's look at Acts 8. Philip spoke the word of the Lord to the people of Samaria and those that believed were baptized (vs 12). Now, were they baptized in water, with the Holy Spirit, or both?

If the two are linked and inseperable, then your answer would have to be both. However, notice verses 15-16 , "who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Here a clear distinction is made between baptism in water and everything else.

You're the one who believes baptism equates to salvation (I guess if you add on Jesus' name), abd this shows that it doesn't. Here, they did not even receive the Holy Spirit, and if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Rom.8:9)</font>[/QUOTE]They believed and were baptized (Acts 8:12), yet you think they were "none of his".

Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" and they had believed and were baptized, therefore;

1) Either Jesus is right and you are wrong
or
2) Jesus is wrong and you are right

By your statements, you admit there is a distinction between baptism in water and baptism with the HS. Therefore, they cannot be the same.

Since there is only one, and water baptism was never abolished, it is the one baptism of Eph 4:5. Baptism always refers to its ordinary meaning of immersion in water, unless something in the text demands otherwise.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Also notice that water baptism is the baptism refered to as done in "the name of the Lord Jesus". In other words, water baptism is by Jesus' authority.

Jesus had been given all authority (Matt 28:18). He commanded his apostles to go make disciples and baptize them and then teach them to go teach and baptize others and teach them to go teach and baptize others and so on, creating a cycle that never ends. This is baptism in water since neither you nor I could fulfill this commission if it were baptism with the HS, because that was a promise from Jesus and something He would do. The baptism in Matt 28:18-20 had human administrators. Therefore water baptism is the only possibility for the "one baptism" in Eph 4:5.

That's another line that you keep giving. If "baptism" is both by the Spirit accopmanied by water, then that passage does refer to the water ceremony that men administer. But also, by going and leading people to Christ, we are in a sense spiritually baptizing into the Body of Christ as well. It's the Spirit that does the baptizing, but just as with the water, we are the ones who are going and winning people and leading them into this process. Once again, they were both supposed to be concurrent, but got separated because baptism came to be associated with joinign a particular group, after going through its membership classes.
Still, with all of this, we see your "one baptism" line doesn;t prove anything, so it's time to retire it. Next is this "it must be something we administer" stuff. </font>[/QUOTE][/quote]

I know you will not accept that the one baptism is water baptism because that would blow apart your whole belief system. You cannot accept Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:26-27, I Pet 3:21 for what they say.

You must grasp at the hope that baptism means something other than it's ordinary use in scripture.

The one baptism is water baptism, plain and simple. Show one example given in scripture where Holy Spirit baptism ever occurred simutaneously with baptism in water. You can't find it. THEY ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS!

Now, was Jesus lying, just kidding, mistaken, being misleading, or telling the truth when He said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"?- Mark 16:16

What other words could he have used if He really meant, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"?

 

[gekko]

"We need to spend more time discipling those that say they are Christians then worry whether or not they truly are. That's not our job so let's quit pretending like it is."
amen for that.

"It's not the Christians job to decide who or who is not saved."
exactly. only God truly knows.

do you think then that the wheat didn't know that there were tears beside them? sometimes it is hard to see. but yah. discipling them is one of the main.

Judas Iscariot was a false convert. and not even the disciples even realized that.

hmm. i do agree with everything you are saying.
ok. everything except the bad things about me. lol.

"And if we see something in their life that is outside of the Christian walk, instead of just writing them off as a non-Christian, we in love need to share with them God's truth and be an instrument that God can use to get them back on track. Just as when you or I stray off the path we need to have someone in love be an instrument of God so He can use them to draw us back onto the straight path."

amen for that as well. but i never said that i was writing people off as non-christians just because they told a lie or anything. if i insinuated that, im sorry. that's not what i meant. yet, if they CONSTANTLY do that and dont realize its wrong against God and dont repent of it. then are we to label them as christians?

 

[Tom Butler]

Peter said "Repent." (Acts 2:38)
Paul and Silas said "Believe." (Acts 16:31)

Paul preached "repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." (Acts 20:21)

Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin.

 

[gekko]

ok then. J.Jump. we are saved by grace through faith not by works. we can agree on that.

now is that grace merrited or unmerrited?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by gekko:
ok then. J.Jump. we are saved by grace through faith not by works. we can agree on that.

now is that grace merrited or unmerrited?

By definition grace is always unmerited. There is no such thing as "merited" grace. Grace is God's free unmerited favor toward man. It is always unmerited. It is always free.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--If we could work for it; merit it; then it would not be grace. Grace would no longer be grace if it be of works (merit). Paul makes this very clear.
DHK

 

[gekko]

oh i know we aren't saved by works. that's clear enough.

i believe in merited grace. why? well. there's no such thing as a free lunch. right?

God will continually give us grace if we walk uprightly in Him.
Psalm 84:4 "For the Lord God is a sun and shield: the Lord will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly."

which is also insinuating that the Lord will not give grace to those that dont walk uprightly. no?

"God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." - James 4:6

"Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up." James 4:10

those two verses. God gives grace to the humble. which is insinuating the fact that we must become humble before God before we recieve his grace. we must be repentant of our sins toward God before He gives us grace. if we dont humble ourselves He will not lift us up. right?

good works have nothing to do with merited grace. none whatsoever. merited grace = earned grace. to put it in simpler terms.

its all spiritual - repentance, etc...
if we have a repentant heart and humble ourselves before God. God will give us grace. no?

 

[J. Jump]

Peter said "Repent." (Acts 2:38)
Paul and Silas said "Believe." (Acts 16:31)

Tom these two verses are not talking about the same thing. If you will go back and look at what the question was being asked you will see the difference.

In Acts 2 they ask what must we do. And in Acts 16 the question is what must I do to be saved.

In Acts 2 they were wanting to know what they needed to do in order to right the wrong they had done in killing their King. They were already "saved" individuals.

The jailor was not a saved individual hence his question what must I do to be saved.

Peter's message was a message of the kingdom. Paul's message was a message of salvation by grace through faith. They are two different messages.

 

[J. Jump]

Gekko if you feel that I have said bad things about you please accept my apology, becuase that was never my intention to offend you.

As to merited grace well as has been said already that's an oxymoron. There is no such thing as merited grace.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
In Acts 2 they were wanting to know what they needed to do in order to right the wrong they had done in killing their King. They were already "saved" individuals.

The jailor was not a saved individual hence his question what must I do to be saved.
[/QB]

In Acts 2, they were not saved. Some of them received the Gospel from the disciples, then they were baptized later ( Acts 2:41)

Jailor in Acts 16:31 was in the same situation.
"Believe " includes "Repent" Without Repentance one cannot believe the truth.

 

[J. Jump]

Eliyahu the folks in Acts 2 were indeed saved, because they were not entertaining the message of salvation by grace through faith. They were entertaining the message of the kingdom.

Those are two different messages.

If you equate Acts 2:38 with the salvation by grace through faith message, then you are forced into saying that baptism is a part of salvation and that is unBiblical.

In Acts 2:36 Peter was not preaching a Savior, he was preaching a Master and a King. One can not accept Christ as Master and King until they are made alive spiritually. These folks were alive spiritually or they could not have even understood the message of Lordship and Kingship.

Other evidence to this can be found in Acts 2:41. Notice at the end of that verse there were added about 3,000 souls. Salvation by grace through faith deals with the spirit not the soul.

If that was a message of salvation by grace through faith they would have been added about 3,000 spirits. But that's not what the text says.

Context is king. And the context is the message of the kingdom, not the message of salvation by grace through faith.

 

[Eliyahu]

Actually I have translated that part in this way:
To the forgiveness of the sins of you, repent ye and let each of you be baptized on the name of Jesus Christ.

Baptism is not the requirement for Salvation,but it follows after the Salvation.

εισ αφεσιν των αμαρτιων

That is not necessarily indicating the result of Baptism, but the result of Repentance.

When the salvation is done, Souls are saved as the Spirit revives. So, the verse 41 doesn't say that the Spirits were already saved. Souls can be subject either to Spirit or to Flesh.
This becomes clear when we read 1 Cor 1:29-31 and 2:10-16.

If Acts 2 were already saved and Peter was preaching to the saved, believers, then you are greatly mistaken. Please read it before and after the verse once again.

 

[Eliyahu]

Acts 2:38 is the continuation from Acts 2:14 addressed to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and Judaea, then they were convicted by the words thru Peter, then Peter spoke to them in verse 38.

That was the response after the Inauguration of Holy Spirit on the Pentecost.

 

[J. Jump]

Eliyahua it doesn't matter how you arrange that passage of Scripture. The salvation of the soul doesn't come into play until the spirit has been made alive. If their spirits were dead then there would have been 3,000 spirits added to the group.

But becuase their spirits were already alive the salvation of their soul could begin and that's why there was added 3,000 souls.

Acts 2:14, Acts 2:38 it all goes back to the same message that John the Baptist, Christ, the disciples and the apostles were preaching. They were not preaching salvation by grace through faith. They were preaching the salvation of the kingdom.

Again these are two different aspects of the gospel message. They must be kept separate in order to understand Scripture.

Eliyahu I will not comment on the two passages in I Corinthians becuase neither of them are talking about the soul being subject to the flesh or the spirit.

Again this is why there is so much confusion and difference in the message of salvation today. People are not rightly dividing the Word of God and therefore are combining things and adding things until the message is confused and there is no unity in what salvation is.

There is one salvation, but it is broken up into three parts. Three parts no that should not come as any surprise. God is one in three. Man in one in three. Salvation is one in three.

The first part of salvation is a one-time event. When one receives the gift of grace through faith then they are made alive spiritually. Done deal that can never be reversed. That gift can never be taken away.

The second part of salvation is sanctification or the salvation of the soul. This is not a guarantee. It may or may not happen. If you will lose your life (soul) now you will find it (life/soul) in the age to come. If you find your life (soul) now you will lose it in the age to come.

We are set apart from the world when our spirits are made alive, but we are to be sanctified and set apart in relation to the coming kingdom where we can rule and reign with the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

Some will realize this salvation and others will not, but it doesn't have anything to do with the salvation by grace through faith message.

This is a continual process that the Christian must go through for an entire lifetime. Run the race. You got to run the entire race. If you do not complete the race then you don't win the prize.

Then at some point in the future there will a final salvation that includes the body.

 

[gekko]

the gift of grace CAN be taken away though.
Psalm 84:11 says that the Lord will not withhold that which is good from them that walk uprightly.
so if we dont walk uprightly, God WILL WITHHOLD that which is good. grace.

 

[J. Jump]

Gekko once again you are trying to combine two message that don't mix. You are trying to mix grace and works.

God's grace is an unmerited gift which is given one time in relation to salvation by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Therefore we didn't do anything to earn it. If we didn't do anything to earn we can't do anything to earn keeping it. If it can be taken away becaue of works or lack thereof then it stops being a gift and turns into wages.

Now with your verse you are getting into an area that is going to get complicated and I really don't want to go into it on the message board, but if you would like to discuss it privately then I would be more than happy to do that.

But if miss the mark in the first point then second point isn't going to make much sense.

In relation to the salvation of the spirit the only person's works that are involved at anypoint in time is Jesus Christ. That's it. Our works never enter the picture.

If we can't at least agree upon that point then there is no need in even diving into the verse that you are bringing up.

 

[gekko]

please check out this thread i already started on Grace:

Grace - Merited or Unmerited?