What Is Paul's Thorn In the Flesh?

[Aaron]

Paul does not look like someone having a problem with pride.

Thanks to the thorn.

 

[Hark]

Thanks to the thorn.

So what exactly is that thorn in the flesh that prevents him from having pride & yet at the same time, prevent others from exalting him higher than they ought to think and yet still identify as a messenger of Satan that buffet him that Paul had asked God to remove 3 times.??

It can't be pride because this thorn in the flesh prevents that from happening. Whatever it is, he does not seem to associate it with how the other apostles are suffering in ministry since Paul was glorying in the apostle John for that Book of Revelations, albeit not directly referenced as such..

 

[Aaron]

So what exactly is that thorn in the flesh that prevents him from having pride & yet at the same time, prevent others from exalting him higher than they ought to think and yet still identify as a messenger of Satan that buffet him that Paul had asked God to remove 3 times.??

We're not 'exactly' told, but we are told the nature of it, as I've already pointed out.

Also, it's about keeping him from exalting himself above measure, again, as I've already pointed out.

It can't be pride because this thorn in the flesh prevents that from happening.

That's right, the thorn is not pride. Pride is the reason for the thorn.

 

[1689Dave]

What is Paul's thorn in the flesh?

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Paul described this thorn in the flesh as a "messenger of Satan" to buffet him. I discern this to be that he was hearing voices from the devil in accusing him and such. Since the devil is doing this now before the rapture with the brethren, I discern that is how the devil is buffeting him.

Revelation 12:10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Some say it was his eyesight; some say it was some struggle in the flesh, but none aligns with "messenger of Satan" other than hearing voices.

This thorn in the flesh was to prevent believers from exalting him higher than they ought to think. Needing glasses would not do that, but hearing voices... the stigma would prevent people from exalting Paul higher than they ought to think in spite of all the revelations and visions that were coming from him as an apostle. It certainly would prevent him from getting a swell head or the foot of pride for having all those revelations & visions for which he had become reliant on God all the time to help him through his infirmities in life.

Scripture seems to be leading to this discernment. I believe the Lord has led me to discern this as truth.

So for all those that are classified as mentally ill, rely on Jesus Christ to help you through your trials in life.

The bible is often a Roarasach Test and we read into it our own condition supposing it to be what it means. Let's see.... I'm overweight, so Paul must have developed an eating problem. I'm crazy so that must have been it.

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” Hebrews 4:12 (KJV 1900)

 

[canadyjd]

Since Paul was addressing this thorn in the flesh as something that was given to him and had asked 3 times for God to remove it, it can hardly be referring to those persecutions within the church when it was given to him to prevent believers from thinking higher than they ought to think because of visions and revelations... not because of persecutions.

You are missing that Paul was listing it as one of his infirmities from as he dove into one of them as being that thorn in the flesh in 1 Corinthians 12:5 in regards to glorying in revelations & visions as he did regarding the apostle John in 2 Corinthians 12;1-5 in that regards to the Book of Revelations.

Now you overlook infirmities being listed among the other things Paul goes through in ministry in 2 Corinthians 12:10 but it would be best to read on a few more verses.

2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Paul's point in the context of that message was to convey that a thorn in the flesh as an infirmity in the flesh that would prevent believers from thinking of him higher than they ought to think because of visions & revelations. It cannot be persecutions because it is listed separate from infirmities as well as necessities, reproaches and distresses and those are not all related to what infirmities is at all. So as infirmities is listed as plural as referring to his physical flesh, then that thorn in the flesh is just one of his infirmities in the flesh, but that infirmity is identified as a messenger of Satan... hence hearing the voice of the devil.

People today would call that a mental illness and they would not think higher of Paul than they ought to think today also, but the believers back then see God using him in ministry to give God the glory for all his revelations & visions by him as coming from God..

I can only point out the fact that Paul continuously, from Chapter 1 forward, speaks to the Corinthians about persecutions and troubles he had faced.

He is attempting to establish his authority as an Apostle while explaining the ongoing persecution he always faces.

He continuously speaks of the “benefits” of all these problems focused mainly on being enabled by God to endure threats of death and the suffering he endured for the advancement of the gospel.

In chapter 12, he continues these themes, speaking of being taken into heaven to receive revelations from God (establishing his authority as an Apostle) immediately followed by the “thorn in the flesh” comment (persecutions and suffering) attempting to explain the reason he faces those trials.

The bottom line is God’s statement that His grace is perfected in weaknesses.

There is absolutely no reason to believe Paul suffered from some form of mental illness. It’s just not there.

peace to you

 

[Hark]

We're not 'exactly' told, but we are told the nature of it, as I've already pointed out.

As with parables and understanding His words, we can ask the Lord for wisdom and so we can for this for what and how it is written.

Also, it's about keeping him from exalting himself above measure, again, as I've already pointed out.

That's right, the thorn is not pride. Pride is the reason for the thorn.

I can see why you believe it is pride for why the thorn, but not really identifying the thorn. The reason I am not discerning what you see is because this thorn was given not to prevent himself from thinking higher than he ought to think of himself but to prevent others from thinking higher than they ought to think of him.

Paul says the nature of this thorn was in his physical flesh per one of his infirmities.

This was given to him and he had prayed to remove it 3 times, thus not all infirmities but this bad one but God finally said no and why.

This thorn was labeled as a messenger of Satan for how or why it was buffeting him. This element is left unapplied in relations to whatever the reason others think he is getting as being that thorn in the flesh.

 

[Hark]

The bible is often a Roarasach Test and we read into it our own condition supposing it to be what it means. Let's see.... I'm overweight, so Paul must have developed an eating problem. I'm crazy so that must have been it.

I do not believe that as that would mean scripture is open to private interpretation for why the scripture reproves such a notion.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Paul says the nature of this thorn was in his physical flesh per one of his infirmities.

This was given to him and he had prayed to remove it 3 times, thus not all infirmities but this bad one but God finally said no and why.

This thorn was labeled as a messenger of Satan for how or why it was buffeting him. This element is left unapplied in relations to whatever the reason others think he is getting as being that thorn in the flesh.

 

[Hark]

I can only point out the fact that Paul continuously, from Chapter 1 forward, speaks to the Corinthians about persecutions and troubles he had faced.

He is attempting to establish his authority as an Apostle while explaining the ongoing persecution he always faces.

He continuously speaks of the “benefits” of all these problems focused mainly on being enabled by God to endure threats of death and the suffering he endured for the advancement of the gospel.

In chapter 12, he continues these themes, speaking of being taken into heaven to receive revelations from God (establishing his authority as an Apostle) immediately followed by the “thorn in the flesh” comment (persecutions and suffering) attempting to explain the reason he faces those trials.

The bottom line is God’s statement that His grace is perfected in weaknesses.

There is absolutely no reason to believe Paul suffered from some form of mental illness. It’s just not there.

peace to you

If we consider for a moment why God did not remove it as it was given to him to prevent others from exalting or thinking higher than they ought to think of Paul, would all that Paul gone through keep us from thinking higher of him today?

When we think of other believers being martyred .. does that prevent us from thinking higher of them than we ought to think?

Paul says the nature of this thorn was in his physical flesh per one of his infirmities.

This was given to him and he had prayed to remove it 3 times, thus not all of his infirmities but this bad one but God finally said no and why.

This thorn was labeled as a messenger of Satan for how or why it was buffeting him. This element is left unapplied in relations to whatever the reason you think he is getting as being that thorn in the flesh.

 

[1689Dave]

I do not believe that as that would mean scripture is open to private interpretation for why the scripture reproves such a notion.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Paul says the nature of this thorn was in his physical flesh per one of his infirmities.

This was given to him and he had prayed to remove it 3 times, thus not all infirmities but this bad one but God finally said no and why.

This thorn was labeled as a messenger of Satan for how or why it was buffeting him. This element is left unapplied in relations to whatever the reason others think he is getting as being that thorn in the flesh.

People always assume they know what scripture says. That is why we have so many cults and denominations. Unless Paul defines his thorn, we should not make it into something we might experience thinking of it that way.

 

[Hark]

People always assume they know what scripture says. That is why we have so many cults and denominations. Unless Paul defines his thorn, we should not make it into something we might experience thinking of it that way.

That is why we have Jesus Christ as our Good shepherd to help us understand the scripture as it should be applied in rightly dividing the word of truth.

In all any of us share, including me, each of us has to confirm the word with Him thus proving everything by Him, even with what we believe to be true.

1 Thessalonians 5;21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

It is not a leap when angels are messengers and messenger are giving voice to a message. and since this was an infirmity in his flesh, I discern that with Him to mean Paul was hearing voices from Satan for why he did not like it & wanted it removed. Everything else is to be expected in serving Him in ministry as all the other apostles and believers have gone through, so Paul is not selfish to ask for anything relating to that to be removed. It has to be something the other apostles did not suffer or could not suffer for why Paul asked for that thorn to be removed.

Again, only the Lord can confirm that to you and only if it be merciful to me only the Lord can show you my error or oversight by pointing it out for which I would seek a confirmation on the Lord for me to be pruned and bear more fruit in the knowledge of Him.

 

[Aaron]

This thorn was labeled as a messenger of Satan for how or why it was buffeting him. This element is left unapplied in relations to whatever the reason others think he is getting as being that thorn in the flesh.

From where do temptations and persecutions come?

Anyway, I'm done.

 

[canadyjd]

If we consider for a moment why God did not remove it as it was given to him to prevent others from exalting or thinking higher than they ought to think of Paul, would all that Paul gone through keep us from thinking higher of him today?

When we think of other believers being martyred .. does that prevent us from thinking higher of them than we ought to think?

Paul says the nature of this thorn was in his physical flesh per one of his infirmities.

This was given to him and he had prayed to remove it 3 times, thus not all of his infirmities but this bad one but God finally said no and why.

This thorn was labeled as a messenger of Satan for how or why it was buffeting him. This element is left unapplied in relations to whatever the reason you think he is getting as being that thorn in the flesh.

It doesn’t matter what we would think of his persecutions “today”. What matters is the attitude of those in the Corinthian church who were breaking into factions and attempting to undermine Paul’s authority as an Apostle based on the constant persecution he experienced.

The main theme of 2 Cor is persecution and suffering for the cause of Christ by Paul and the benefits that came from it.

You have to understand the context of scripture as it was written to understand its meaning.

You just can’t say, “well, today, if a person is mentally ill and hearing voices that would cause people to think badly of him so Paul must have been mentally ill and hearing voices.”

You could just as easily say, “well, in the 15th century people believed all witches had giant warts on their noses so Paul must have had a giant wart on his nose which caused the Corinthians to think he was a witch.”

Your logic doesn’t make sense and is refuted by the context of of these passages.

There is absolutely no reason to believe Paul was mentally ill. None!!!

peace to you

 

[Hark]

From where do temptations and persecutions come?

Anyway, I'm done.

I cannot see how Paul would expect God to answer that prayer when others have to go through it. There would be hardly any looking to Him to help him lay aside every weight & sin daily if He did.

This had to be something not shared by other believers that undergo persecutions or temptations; something he believed God would remove as it was something he did not like as one of the infirmities in his own flesh.

Would we not think highly of those who suffer & die for their faith in Jesus Christ? Would we not empathize with those who suffer temptations & pray for them?

This has to be something Paul does not see other apostles as going through for why I see it as hearing voice of the devil messing with him as in his flesh as hearing it but nobody else does.

Would that make us not think of Paul higher than we ought to think? It would for anyone serving Him in ministry today, right?

 

[Hark]

It doesn’t matter what we would think of his persecutions “today”. What matters is the attitude of those in the Corinthian church who were breaking into factions and attempting to undermine Paul’s authority as an Apostle based on the constant persecution he experienced.

The main theme of 2 Cor is persecution and suffering for the cause of Christ by Paul and the benefits that came from it.

You have to understand the context of scripture as it was written to understand its meaning.

You just can’t say, “well, today, if a person is mentally ill and hearing voices that would cause people to think badly of him so Paul must have been mentally ill and hearing voices.”

You could just as easily say, “well, in the 15th century people believed all witches had giant warts on their noses so Paul must have had a giant wart on his nose which caused the Corinthians to think he was a witch.”

Your logic doesn’t make sense and is refuted by the context of of these passages.

There is absolutely no reason to believe Paul was mentally ill. None!!!

peace to you

I do not believe hearing voices would make people think badly of Paul but rather not allow all the visions and revelations they know came from the Lord to tempt them to think higher of him than they ought to think which hearing a voice from the devil would.

 

[canadyjd]

I do not believe hearing voices would make people think badly of Paul but rather not allow all the visions and revelations they know came from the Lord to tempt them to think higher of him than they ought to think which hearing a voice from the devil would.

So, you think Paul was hearing voices from Satan. Then he told everyone, “hey, I’m getting revelation from God, but I’m also hearing the voice of Satan himself, but just trust me, I can tell the difference.”

And this was something God allowed to keep believers from thinking too highly of Paul?

Is that what you are saying?

There is absolutely no evidence from scripture that Paul was “hearing the voice of Satan”.

However, I’ll let you make your argument.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[Hark]

So, you think Paul was hearing voices from Satan. Then he told everyone, “hey, I’m getting revelation from God, but I’m also hearing the voice of Satan himself, but just trust me, I can tell the difference.”

And this was something God allowed to keep believers from thinking too highly of Paul?

Is that what you are saying?

There is absolutely no evidence from scripture that Paul was “hearing the voice of Satan”.

However, I’ll let you make your argument.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

Doesn't everybody get the battlefield of the mind?

But with Paul.it was more than that. I am sure he had asked others to pray for him regarding this & God told Paul no and why.

 

[1689Dave]

That is why we have Jesus Christ as our Good shepherd to help us understand the scripture as it should be applied in rightly dividing the word of truth.

In all any of us share, including me, each of us has to confirm the word with Him thus proving everything by Him, even with what we believe to be true.

1 Thessalonians 5;21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

It is not a leap when angels are messengers and messenger are giving voice to a message. and since this was an infirmity in his flesh, I discern that with Him to mean Paul was hearing voices from Satan for why he did not like it & wanted it removed. Everything else is to be expected in serving Him in ministry as all the other apostles and believers have gone through, so Paul is not selfish to ask for anything relating to that to be removed. It has to be something the other apostles did not suffer or could not suffer for why Paul asked for that thorn to be removed.

Again, only the Lord can confirm that to you and only if it be merciful to me only the Lord can show you my error or oversight by pointing it out for which I would seek a confirmation on the Lord for me to be pruned and bear more fruit in the knowledge of Him.

If Paul doesn't say any more than he did, why add to God's word by speculating?

 

[Hark]

If Paul doesn't say any more than he did, why add to God's word by speculating?

I believe messenger of Satan is key that many overlook when discerning this thorn in the flesh.

I believe as he does mention this as an infirmity in the flesh that he did not like and wanted removed, but God would help him live his life with it, is why I believe this may bring hope to those today that are diagnosed with a mental illness.

 

[canadyjd]

Doesn't everybody get the battlefield of the mind?

But with Paul.it was more than that. I am sure he had asked others to pray for him regarding this & God told Paul no and why.

There is absolutely zero evidence in scripture that Paul was hearing the “voice of Satan”. Zero, none.

There is abundant and continuous support in 2 Cor and many other letters that Paul was speaking of persecutions and general suffering while he was proclaiming the gospel as being his “thorn in the flesh”.

You are claiming some kind of special insight into this issue that is clearly contrary to scripture and nearly 2000 years of Christian thought.

I’ll leave you with this. If you are getting special discernment on this or any other matter that is contrary to scripture it is not coming from God.

peace to you

 

[robycop3]

I believe it was his eyesight.
Speech impediment? Nupe. That woulda limited his ability to present the Gospel orally.
Hearing voices? Nupe. He could simply ignore them.
Persecutions? Nupe. The thorn was in his flesh.

But we know he had poor eyesight, which he likely didn't have when he was young & studying under Gamaliel & others. His sight mighta been affected on the road to damascus when he was temporarily blinded by the intense light. Mosta his epistles were dictated to a scribe. If it was so poor he had to sign his name with large letters, he likely couldn't see too clearly at all, & was likely unable to discern different objects or recognize faces more than some 3 feet from him. That woulda made travel more difficult for him & could be why he always traveled with at least one companion.

Another lesser possibility-his being asexual. His writings suggest he had no desire for women at all. He mighta wanted to have been a father, same as most Jewish men of that day, but God had other plans for him. Again, this is just a guess.

But to me, poor sight seems the most-likely thorn.