What is Pre-Trib?

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //Your vision of the "comfort" given by Paul is discriminatory and fails to be an encouragement for Trib-Saints who "endure to the End"!//

I don't see why we should spend time trying to give comfort to a couple
or three hundred persons who will survive the SEVEN YEARS of
the Tribulation Period when we can give comfort to SEVERAL HUNDRED
MILLIONS who might be living now but will die before the Tribulation
Period and be resurrected by Christ before the Tribulation Period starts
and 200 MILLION souls that will be RAPTURED by Jesus
before the Tribulation Period.

I'm counting only gentiles, not Jews. Some 8 million Jews (if the
pretribulation rapture were today) will be spared through the
Tribulation Period by the very hand of God Almighty.

Mel Miller: // ... There is no "wrath" to escape until the LAST TRUMP sounds ... //

I believe that the earthquake of chapter 6 of Revelation
and the one of chaper 16 of revelation are two different earthquakes.
The earthquake of Revelation 16 is 1,000 to 10,000 times as bad
as the one of Revelation 6.

 

[skypair]

Mel,

____________________________________________________________
I agreed with YOU from the start that Rev.3:10 and Luke 21:34-35 are "connected"!!!!!

And then you threw in Rev 2:25-26 that is NOT connected. Rev 2:25 refers to Thyatira, right? Where is "Thyatira" during the pretrib rapture? LEFT BEHIND!! She's the harlot --- MYSTERY BABYLON -- thrown into a bed and into GT, 2:22!! Of course Christ can make this promise to a church that is left behind, some of which "convert" and "overcome!"

I also agree with you that the true Church will escape and be KEPT OUT
of the testings of Rev.3:10 and Luke 24:34-35

TESTINGS is the key word. YOU believe that refers to "wrath!" That is how you go on to say...

... because both refer to the DAY Christ comes and men see Him appear on a cloud on the DAY He "raises up every believer and gathers all the elect from earth and sends the angels to gather us from all extremities of the heavens to meet Him at the Synagogue" in the Sky. John 6:38-40; Mark 13:27; 2 Th.2:1.

The "TESTING" is like Peter at Herod's palace -- tested whether he was a disciple of Jesus 3 times. TESTING is like the woman corrupting the tribulation "meal" (Jews/flour and Gentiles/barley) with 3 measures of leaven! TESTING is like the "strong delusion" and "deceivablenes of unrighteousness" (2Thes 2) -- the "snares" of Luke 21:35. TESTING is NOT the bowls of the wrath of God or Armageddon. Those represent the end of testing and the beginning of judgment!

But how can you interpret the DAY of deliverance from tribulation in I Thess.1:7 as referring to a Pre-Trib rapture RATHER than to the DAY WHEN the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven to TAKE VENGEANCE on those who know not God ...

Jesus called the GT - post AoD from the context - the "days of vengeance" (Luke 21:22). But notice also, it is ANGELS that sound the trumpets. It is ANGELS that pour out the bowls. In fact, what is the 1st trumpet? Fire consuming all the green grass and 1/3 of the trees (Rev 8:6). There's your "flaming fire taking vengeance" in 2Thes 1:8! And who was protected from it? 144,000 --- those who DID know God (Rev 7:3)!

AND who are glorified (together with Paul who also suffered tribulation and martyrdom) ON THE DAY Jesus comes to be glorified in ALL who believe?!

I see no reason for you to conclude that Christ will be glorified only in the PRE-TRIBULATION Saints on that DAY!

So you deny that the "bride" is His army on that day, Rev 19:14.

Do you propose that TRIBULATION Saints who suffer Tribulation and even Martyrdom for Christ will NOT be included among those in whom Christ is glorified ON THAT DAY?

I do. Daniel tells us that THEIR glorification (Rev 20:4) will be post-1260 days (Dan 12:11-13) when they are resurrected in glorified bodies to "stand their lot" in the judgment of Rev 20:4. They are NOT seen coming down to war at Armageddon in Rev 19:14 but are raised in Rev 20:4 if scripture means anything to you.

skypair

 

[skypair]

James,

I believe the reason there is evidence for a pre-trib rapture and a post-trib rapture, and even a mid-trib rapture, may be because they are all true. The problem is that the pre-trib rapture is conditional. Christians are told to watch and pray that they may be accounted worthy to escape the tribulation. Many Christians will probably end up going through at least part of the tribulation, to 'ripen' in the heat. Those taken before the tribulation will be firstfruits, with the final harvest coming at the end.

There are elements of truth in what you say. All 3 "resurrections" may be seen -- church to heaven pretrib, 2 witnesses to heaven midtrib, Israel to earth postrib. All are there in scripture.

But it is not so much the "watch and pray" that is the condition. Mt 25:1-13 tells us that ALL the virgins (prospective church) were sleeping at the "midnight cry." It is the "oil" that is the "condition" -- the Holy Spirit within your "lamp"/body so that your "flame"/works won't "go out" before you can "go out" to meet the bridegroom!

And this is the teaching that there are 5 churches in Rev 2-3 that are raptured all or in part (Eph, Smyrna, Perg, Sardis, Philly) and there are 5 that will be left behind all or partly (Eph, Perg, Thyatira, Sardis, Laodicea). Christ doesn't call the latter 5 "church" anymore after Rev 4 but they are the martyrs who appear under the altar at the opening of the 5th seal.

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Trib

:love2:

Mel,

And then you threw in Rev 2:25-26 that is NOT connected. Rev 2:25 refers to Thyatira, right? Where is "Thyatira" during the pretrib rapture? LEFT BEHIND!! She's the harlot --- MYSTERY BABYLON -- thrown into a bed and into GT, 2:22!! Of course Christ can make this promise to a church that is left behind, some of which "convert" and "overcome!"
_____________________________________________________________
I THREW IN REV.2:25-27 BECAUSE those who "overcome to the END"
include Tribulation SURVIVORS!! You have not yet proved the Church
will be gone to heaven DURING the great tribulation. And you are overlooking the fact that ONLY some in Thyatira will be "cast into GREAT TRIBULATION TO BE KILLED" by the Lord Himself ... but not in WRATH!! The END-TIME sufferers ALSO include "SOME who must taste death" for 3 1/2 days PRIOR TO GOD'S WRATH!!!!! Mark 9:1; Rev.12:10; Rev.11:7-11.
____________________________________________________________
skypair:
TESTINGS is the key word. YOU believe that refers to "wrath!" That is how you go on to say...
____________________________________________________________
NO MY FRIEND! The HOUR of Trial occurs only after Christ appears!!!!!!
____________________________________________________________
skypair:
The "TESTING" is like Peter at Herod's palace -- tested whether he was a disciple of Jesus 3 times. TESTING is like the woman corrupting the tribulation "meal" (Jews/flour and Gentiles/barley) with 3 measures of leaven! TESTING is like the "strong delusion" and "deceivablenes of unrighteousness" (2Thes 2) -- the "snares" of Luke 21:35. TESTING is NOT the bowls of the wrath of God or Armageddon. Those represent the end of testing and the beginning of judgment!
____________________________________________________________

Now you seem to see the difference between God's anger and His WRATH. All who "beg for mercy" will be "KEPT ALIVE", Jesus said, even during the moments of God's WRATH which follows the "HOUR OF TRIAL". Testing is more than being like a "strong delusion" ... for it is during the recognition
and acknowledgement by unbelievers that God's DAY of Wrath has come that all manking will face the HOUR of Trial from which NONE can escape unless he begs for mercy. Luke 21:34-36; Luke 17:33.
____________________________________________________________
skypair:
Jesus called the GT - post AoD from the context - the "days of vengeance" (Luke 21:22). But notice also, it is ANGELS that sound the trumpets. It is ANGELS that pour out the bowls. In fact, what is the 1st trumpet? Fire consuming all the green grass and 1/3 of the trees (Rev 8:6). There's your "flaming fire taking vengeance" in 2Thes 1:8! And who was protected from it? 144,000 --- those who DID know God (Rev 7:3)!
______________________________________________________

Post AD 70 were/are "days of vengeance" only for "this people of
Israel". You are incorrect to say the DAY of Vengeance includes any
of the first six Trumpets! Only at the 7th Trumpet, the LAST TRUMP,
does God's Wrath occur ... and only after the HOUR of Trial ends!!!
You are not following through with the difference between Anger and Wrath. Any who escape God's WRATH applies ONLY to the DAY and HOUR of God's Wrath!!

Yes, it is Angels that pour out the Vials of God's Anger AND it is
Angels who "gather the elect out of all extremities of the heavenS
after Jesus gathers TRIB-SURVIVORS (along with the Dead in Christ) from earth to heaven"!
_____________________________________________________
skypair:
So you deny that the "bride" is His army on that day, Rev 19:14.

I do. Daniel tells us that THEIR glorification (Rev 20:4) will be post-1260 days (Dan 12:11-13) when they are resurrected in glorified bodies to "stand their lot" in the judgment of Rev 20:4. They are NOT seen coming down to war at Armageddon in Rev 19:14 but are raised in Rev 20:4 if scripture means anything to you.
____________________________________________________________
How can I deny the "Bride is His Army on that Day"??? He comes FOR all
the Saints ON THE SAME DAY He comes WITH all the Saints. Paul prayed
that ALL the Saints might be worthy of Him ON THAT DAY!!!! I Thess.3:13 and 2 Thess.1:5,11.
____________________________________________________________
skypair

I respectfully conclude that God's WRATH applies only to those who are destined for HELL!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Trib

James,



There are elements of truth in what you say. All 3 "resurrections" may be seen -- church to heaven pretrib, 2 witnesses to heaven midtrib, Israel to earth postrib. All are there in scripture.

But it is not so much the "watch and pray" that is the condition. Mt 25:1-13 tells us that ALL the virgins (prospective church) were sleeping at the "midnight cry." It is the "oil" that is the "condition" -- the Holy Spirit within your "lamp"/body so that your "flame"/works won't "go out" before you can "go out" to meet the bridegroom!

And this is the teaching that there are 5 churches in Rev 2-3 that are raptured all or in part (Eph, Smyrna, Perg, Sardis, Philly) and there are 5 that will be left behind all or partly (Eph, Perg, Thyatira, Sardis, Laodicea). Christ doesn't call the latter 5 "church" anymore after Rev 4 but they are the martyrs who appear under the altar at the opening of the 5th seal.

skypair

skypair,

Then you believe in the "Partial Rapture" theory! Some Believers don't make it to heaven in the Rapture but are "left behind"????

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Trib

Mel Miller: //Your vision of the "comfort" given by Paul is discriminatory and fails to be an encouragement for Trib-Saints who "endure to the End"!//

I don't see why we should spend time trying to give comfort to a couple
or three hundred persons who will survive the SEVEN YEARS of
the Tribulation Period when we can give comfort to SEVERAL HUNDRED
MILLIONS who might be living now but will die before the Tribulation
Period and be resurrected by Christ before the Tribulation Period starts
and 200 MILLION souls that will be RAPTURED by Jesus
before the Tribulation Period.

EE,

It looks like your view of God makes Him discrimnate in TWO ways:

1. The "comfort" of I Thess.4:18 is intended ONLY for Pre-Trib saints.
2. The "few" who survive to the End of the Great Tribulation are of
less concern to God than the millions who don't have to go through
the Great Tribulation. He doesn't care as much for millions who would
"endure to the End" but get killed prior to the DAY of Vengeance!!!!

I note you have never acknowledged that the highest Church reward
will be given to those "coming out of the great tribulation who will
serve God as Pillars in the Temple of Heaven for 1000 Years".
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: // ... the highest Church reward
will be given to those "coming out of the great tribulation who will
serve God as Pillars in the Temple of Heaven for 1000 Years". //

Amen, Brother -- preach it! :thumbs:

As for me 'not acknowledging that earlier:
Sorry, God has called me full time to raise a couple of grandchildren.
That calling has priority over Baptist Board every time.

BTW, the several hundred, maybe a thousand, Tribulation saints
will be far outshowed by the BILLIONS of those church age
saints that will COME OUT OF the great tribulation by getting
raptured/resurrected before the Tribulation starts.

 

[Ed Edwards]

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
#4 and #5 are measured in time units.

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

 

[skypair]

skypair,

Then you believe in the "Partial Rapture" theory! Some Believers don't make it to heaven in the Rapture but are "left behind"????

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

No Mel, though at first blush, it may look like that to you. Actually, as in the parable of the 10 virgins, Mt 25:13, I believe in the partial rapture of the church -- not in the partial rapture of believers. Big difference! All virgins, all the church, are NOT believers!

And that is what the "kingdom of heaven" is all about! There are "tares" among the "wheat" -- the mustard seed becomes a "tree" for all the birds, "evil ones." Learn this and you will learn to be sketical of any church doctrine -- which means you will be a "watcher" for Christ's return!!

God bless you in this matter. I'll get back to you on those other matters.

skypair

 

[Jo$h]

I believe in the partial rapture of the church -- not in the partial rapture of believers. Big difference! All virgins, all the church, are NOT believers!
And that is what the "kingdom of heaven" is all about! There are "tares" among the "wheat" -- the mustard seed becomes a "tree" for all the birds, "evil ones." Learn this and you will learn to be sketical of any church doctrine -- which means you will be a "watcher" for Christ's return!!

In the parable of the tares among the wheat who was taken first?

In the days of Noah who was taken and who was "left behind"?

In the days of Lot who was taken and who was "left behind"?

In Matt 24:40 who is taken and who is "left behind"?

 

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Trib

In the parable of the tares among the wheat who was taken first?

In the days of Noah who was taken and who was "left behind"?

In the days of Lot who was taken and who was "left behind"?

In Matt 24:40 who is taken and who is "left behind"?

_____________________________________________________________

Jo$h,

Are you in agreement with skypair that we should be "skeptical of any church doctrine since `tares' have been sown among the wheat" and
therefore there will be only a "partial rapture of the church"?
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[skypair]

Mel,

Please don't use that format anymore. The "quoted" text doesn't come through and I may not end up answering your questions. Just close and open the quotes as you go down the page. :smilewinkgrin:

I didn't prove the true church was in heaven? You know what the pretrib verses are, right? You're not seeing that for the first time, are you?

As to the "hour of testing" -- there's another hour mentioned in Rev that gives us a reference to what that hour is. In Rev 17:12 we see that 10 kings reign one hour with the beast -- it is the entire tribulation save less than a month Zech 11:8 after which he "boots" 3 "shepherds" (Cf. Dan 7:8)

As to the 7th trumpet being the first wrath -- here's the strictest chronology of any book in all the Bible to get your bearings on timing by. The tribulation is, in this order, Rev 6, 8, 9, 13, 16, 19. That is -- seals, trumpets (8-9), MIDTRIB (13), bowls (16), Armageddon (19). As you can see, this would make the "vengeance" in the GT for sure!

Mel, I know you have a website to "feed" and it's all predicated on your views, not mine. And I wouldn't want you changing it until you truly understand scripture. But I do want to say that your trib theory does not take into account 1) clear dispensational differences in promises regarding Israel on the one hand and the church on the other. 2) It represents therefore, that God only made one covenant of salvatoin -- one gospel. This is also false. There is one way -- faith. But salvation is a "process" of first justification (Israel), then sanctification (church, Israel in the MK), then celestial glorification (church pretrib, Israel and MK inhabitants postMK). 3) And this is in accordance with saving our soul, then spirit, then body of all believers into one glorified body of believers in the New Earth.

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Trib

skypair,

Your so-called evidence that the HOUR of Trial (testing; Rev.3:10-11) is NOT part of the DAY Christ comes in glory "to destroy the destroyers of earth" at the 7th Trumpet (Rev.11:18) fails to agree with Jesus in Luke 21:34-36 that this HOUR occurs ON THE DAY He is revealed! Luke 17:30.

Your Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
As to the "hour of testing" -- there's another hour mentioned in Rev that gives reference to what that hour is. In Rev 17:12 we see that 10 kings reign one hour with the beast -- it is the entire tribulation save less than a month Zech 11:8 after which he "boots" 3 "shepherds" (Cf. Dan 7:8)
_____________________________________________________________
Correction to your View:

Rev.17:12 means that Ten Kings "receive power as kings AT the very
same Hour" God puts into their minds to collectively "give their power and authority to the Beast". Rev.17:13,17.

That power continues and abruptly ends at the HOUR of Rev.3:10-11. It occurs when "the Lamb comes with the saints to destory them". Rev.17:
14. The HOUR of Rev.17: 12 begins the Endtime of Great Tribulation; but the HOUR of Rev.3:10 is the HOUR of Rev.17:14 and of Luke 21:34-35
which Jesus describes ON THE DAY mankind sees the signs of His coming and then beholds Him appearing on a cloud ON THAT SAME DAY in great power and glory". Luke 21:25-27 as well as Luke 17:27-30.

Every Believer will overcome and be PRESERVED (KEPT) from that HOUR; but praise God, all those among the tribes of earth who "mourn and keep praying to escape and to stand before the Son of Man" will be PRESERVED
(Kept Alive as was Moses according to Stephen). Luke 17:33; Acts 7:19.

Instead of trying to prove that ONE HOUR means up to 7 Years, why not accept that Jesus requires the ONE HOUR on the DAY He appears???!!!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Trib

skypair,

Your theory of the chronology of events in Revelation is pure assumption!

Your Quote:
_____________________________________________________________

As to the 7th trumpet being the first wrath -- here's the strictest chronology of any book in all the Bible to get your bearings on timing by. The tribulation is, in this order, Rev 6, 8, 9, 13, 16, 19. That is -- seals, trumpets (8-9), MIDTRIB (13), bowls (16), Armageddon (19). As you can see, this would make the "vengeance" in the GT for sure!
_____________________________________________________________

If the DAY of God's and the Lamb's Wrath in Rev.6:17 (which is "in the days immediately AFTER the great tribulation" Matt:24:29; Mark 13:24) occurs (as you assume) BEFORE Rev.16:17 (which requires the Beast's armies to invade Israel before Christ can "destroy them at the 7th Trumpet; Rev.11:18) then you force THE DAY OF THEIR WRATH to occur
ten chapters before the End of the Great Tribulation!

Your view contradicts the words of Jesus that He will destroy "all the wicked" on the DAY He is revealed from heaven in great power and glory!!! That destruction requires the armies to be in place prior to the
opening of Seal Six!!!!!!!!!!

God's wrath will not, and cannot, occur until the DAY all the wicked are
killed and therefore destined to Hell! The act of killing mankind, whether by Satan or by God, is NOT a definition of God's wrath. And "no one can
enter the Temple in Heaven for the sounding of the 7th Trumpet UNTIL THE LAST PLAGUE EMPTIES IN THE AIR"! Rev.15:8.

The Chronology of Events in Revelation requires the Plagues (7 Vials) to "exhaust God's patience" (thumos; Rev.15:1; New Jerusalem Bible) before "The Temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony opens in heaven" for the Three-Act-Drama from Rev.7:9 to Rev.8:5 and Rev.11:15-19. That, my friend, is when "THE TEMPLE WAS OPEN" for heaven's only announcement that "God's wrath had come". Rev.15:5; Rev.11:19.

It is the 7th Trumpet Blast at Rev.11:15 that launches the HOUR of
Wrath. Then, as soon as Heaven Rejoices, Christ descends to "tread the winepress of God's ANGER AND WRATH" at the only time both these
emotions join to produce the "destruction of all destroyers of the earth"
after Act Three of the Temple Drama. Rev.11:15-19; Then Rev.19:1-15.

God's wrath applies only to those destined (not predestined) to Hell !!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Jo$h]

Jo$h,

Are you in agreement with skypair that we should be "skeptical of any church doctrine since `tares' have been sown among the wheat" and
therefore there will be only a "partial rapture of the church"?

No, sorry if I didn't clarify myself. I was just pointing out the unrighteous are those that are taken, not the church.

 

[skypair]

skypair,

Your so-called evidence that the HOUR of Trial (testing; Rev.3:10-11) is NOT part of the DAY Christ comes in glory "to destroy the destroyers of earth" at the 7th Trumpet (Rev.11:18) fails to agree with Jesus in Luke 21:34-36 that this HOUR occurs ON THE DAY He is revealed! Luke 17:30.

I notice on another thread that you are "enthralled" with your Luke 21:36 "discovery." :laugh:

Let me try to first disabuse you of that error. Luke 21:34-36 are one thought. Jesus is warning that "that day" might (if they were "overcharged with eating and drinking") take them unawares. Agree so far?

What does Jesus next tell them will happen in "that day?" A SNARE shall come upon the unaware. Who sets a snare? Christ or AC? Who tries to lure the unaware into his snare? Read 2Thes 2:9-10. It is the AC that lays a SNARE of lying signs and wonders and comes with all deceivableness of unrighteousness. The tribulation is a "test," mel (re: Rev 3:10). I LOVE Pro 1:17 on this point --"Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird." And what are we to do? Watch so the "net" or "snare" doesn't get laid for US!! :sleep:

Well, Jesus doesn't have a snare that I know of. How about you? So in Luke 21:36, Jesus tells them to "Watch... and pray always" that they may "escape" the SNARE AND to stand before Jesus at the Bema judgment in heaven!! away from the TRIBULATION on the whole earth!

Correction to your View:

Rev.17:12 means that Ten Kings "receive power as kings AT the very
same Hour" God puts into their minds to collectively "give their power and authority to the Beast". Rev.17:13,17.

Now why do you wanna change the words like that? "but receive power as kings one hour WITH the beast." They're all going to rule for the duration of the trib. You do it cause you are just about to change the meaning so that it doesn't fit the passage, right?

First problem then, is (Rev 3:11) how in heaven's name can someone "steal your crown" when you come riding back with Christ?? Doesn't it make better sense to you to say we could lose our crowns before the Bema and not after when we come to conquor?

What you need is a good scriptural lesson on the 10 horns, mate. LESSON #1: By studying Dan 7:8, Zech 11:8, Rev 6:1, and Rev 17, you will find that the 10 horns emerge with AC at the beginning of the trib -- none of them have crowns, not even the "kings." This beast is out of the wilderness/Gentiles.

LESSON #2: Now look at Rev 13, the beast out of the sea. Whadaya see, mate? The horns have 10 horns have 10 CROWNS! Hmm. This is MIDTRIB ain't it, mate! This ain't "the last hour," is it? Your theory just went down the poop-shoot!! :laugh:

So when did they get their crowns? Rev 17 tells me that it is early trib -- when AC does his "cabinet shuffling" and plucks up 3 kings within one month of the 7 year peace. That would be my understanding of how AC, who has no power of himself, gets these 10 kings to enforce his MIDEAST peace.

Instead of trying to prove that ONE HOUR means up to 7 Years, why not accept that Jesus requires the ONE HOUR on the DAY He appears???!!!!!

I think I made my point to any real student of eschatology. But there is just one more bit of evidence -- Rev 8:1. See, there's a half hour silence in heaven after the 6th seal. Know why? Cause the opening and the execution of its plague are are half the trib away in Rev 16:21. Compare 6:5 with 16:18 --- you'll start to see that if the 7th seal releases the 7 trumps and the 7th trump releases the 7 bowls, then all 3 are finished at the same time which is at the very end of the trib!

Anyway, that's what MY study shows. I don't ask you to concur but I do ask that you study it like a good Berean! :thumbs:

skypair

 

[James_Newman]

James,



There are elements of truth in what you say. All 3 "resurrections" may be seen -- church to heaven pretrib, 2 witnesses to heaven midtrib, Israel to earth postrib. All are there in scripture.

But it is not so much the "watch and pray" that is the condition. Mt 25:1-13 tells us that ALL the virgins (prospective church) were sleeping at the "midnight cry." It is the "oil" that is the "condition" -- the Holy Spirit within your "lamp"/body so that your "flame"/works won't "go out" before you can "go out" to meet the bridegroom!

The condition was being accounted worthy. Jesus warns us:
Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

I think that we must be careful also to say that all those who are not accounted worthy will be given an opportunity to repent. We have a similar warning in Luke 12.
Luke 12:40-46
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

So there is a strong likelihood that some believers who are living like the devil may be 'taken' as well. We may end up with a bunch of lukewarm Christians left over, to go one way or another.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Skypair: //The tribulation is a "test," mel (re: Rev 3:10)//

That is why i count the Tribulation Period among my
five judgements. See Judgment #3 below:

-----------------------------------------------------
Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46,
2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
(Revelation 20:11:15)
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Trib

To the Self-Acclaimed "Real Student of Eschatology":

skypair's quote:
_____________________________________________________________
I notice on another thread that you are "enthralled" with your Luke 21:36 "discovery." :laugh:

Let me try to first disabuse you of that error. Luke 21:34-36 are one thought. Jesus is warning "that day" might (if they were "overcharged with eating and drinking") take them unawares. Agree so far?
_____________________________________________________________

Well, my friend,

If you think Jesus is warning Believers in Luke 21:22-36, then you miss the fact that the Day of the Lord will NOT overtake us suddenly, by surprise.

If you come to understand Jesus warns Jews who are not convinced of His warning until that DAY comes SUDDENLY as a "thief", and therefore they were unprepared, they instantly become candidates to "mourn and beg to escape all the things happening on that Day". They "stand erect and look up and begin to mourn" when they see the SIGNS of that DAY.

Then, within an hour or two, they will see THE SON of Man as He sends the Angels to gather the Elect out of the 4 winds upon which He will have already gathered us from earth. The HOUR of Trial will not yet have begun when they see the SIGNS in the sun, moon and stars! Luke 21:25-28.

Yes, I agree so far; but am not "disabused" of anything Jesus taught.

If you come to understand Jews SUDDENLY recall the teaching of the Two
Prophets (and of Zechariah) that they would see Him coming ON THE DAY OF THE LORD, you also will realize "their redemption ... and their kingdom are near". As they SEE HIM APPEAR, they will "continue to mourn and beg to escape and to prevail in standing before the Son of Man". They "stand erect" at the SIGNS but SUDDENLY embrace the Son of Man and begin to mourn at the "HOUR of Trial" when Jesus appears!

The Three-Act Temple Drama in heaven that begins as the Two Prophets ascend to heaven and the 144,000 Jews are taken to heaven occurs after ALL the Jews see the SIGNS of that DAY ... but before The HOUR of Trial begins and before those LEFT BEHIND begin to "mourn and beg to escape and meet the condition of being willing to die in order to be kept alive and to stand before the Son of Man". Luke 17:33. Jews will know the Son of Man "comes with the Saints to give them the kingdom" as promised in Daniel" as soon as the Court (of Seal 7 and Dan.7) sits in Judgment! Rev.1:7; Zech.12:10; Matt.24:30; Luke 17:27-33; Joel 2:11-14.

All the Jews "escape" God's wrath on that DAY. Joel 2:32; Rom.11:25-27; Dan.7:9-27.

You see, my friend, Luke 21:22-36 does not address the Saints. Luke confines his remarks to "this people who have suffered God's wrath and endured the DAYS of Vengeance" since AD 70. Luke does not give the SIGN of the Abomination in the Temple (as does Matthew) but reveals the Jews must be "trodden upon until Gentile Times are completely finished"!
(Combination of KAIROS and TELEW in Luke 21:24 is decisive for the End)!

Luke's sole concern is for the Jews who will be saved too late to belong to the Body and Bride of Christ; but whose Redemption and Kingdom begin on the Day of the Lord when He comes with all the Saints. Zech.14:5-9.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Trib

The condition was being accounted worthy. Jesus warns us:
Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

I think that we must be careful also to say that all those who are not accounted worthy will be given an opportunity to repent. We have a similar warning in Luke 12.
Luke 12:40-46
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

So there is a strong likelihood that some believers who are living like the devil may be 'taken' as well. We may end up with a bunch of lukewarm Christians left over, to go one way or another.

____________________________________________________________

James,

It seems to me that no Believer will be unprepared or unworthy of Christ when He comes. Having suffered thru 1260 days of great tribulation, and
knowing "some must still face death" during the 3 1/2 days while the Two Prophets lie dead on a street in Jerusalem (with the world aware of their defeat), "they will continue to love not their life unto death".

Jesus had this in mind in the context of Armageddon when He "comes as a thief and believers are prepared". Rev.16:15.

IMO, those addressed in Luke 21:34 refer to Jews who realize suddenly that their "redemption and kingdom are near". Believers will not even
witness Christ appearing on a cloud and sending the angels to gather the elect from the heavens to which He will have already gathered us.

Only those "left behind" will see Him and "begin to mourn and then beg to escape and to stand before the Son of Man". The only time Jews are "left behind" is the DAY Christ appears. They qualify to "mourn and beg to escape" and should not be drunken! The Two Prophets will have already prepared them for what is coming. Five million Jews will be saved on that DAY.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs: