What is Pre-Trib?

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Trib

To the Self-Acclaimed "Real Student of Eschatology":

Quote by skypair:
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LESSON #2: Now look at Rev 13, the beast out of the sea. Whadaya see, mate? The horns have 10 horns have 10 CROWNS! Hmm. This is MIDTRIB ain't it, mate! This ain't "the last hour," is it? Your theory just went down the poop-shoot!! :laugh:
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Yes this is the "Hour" at MIDTRIB when the Ten Kings destroy Babylon in
ONE HOUR and also "give their power and authority to the Beast" at the
same HOUR. The HOUR points to a definite point in time when decisive
events occur. There is this MIDTRIB HOUR to Destroy Babylon and on the DAY of the Last Trump, there will be the HOUR of Trial "coming on all the inhabitants on all the face of all the earth ... and none can escape unless he "begs to stand before the Son of Man" during that Hour of the coming and presence of Christ. Rev.3:10-11; Luke 21:25-36.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Trib

To the Self-Acclaimed "Real Student of Eschatology":

Quote by skypair:
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I think I made my point to any real student of eschatology. But there is just one more bit of evidence -- Rev 8:1. See, there's a half hour silence in heaven after the 6th seal. Know why? Cause the opening and the execution of its plague are are half the trib away in Rev 16:21. Compare 6:5 with 16:18 --- you'll start to see that if the 7th seal releases the 7 trumps and the 7th trump releases the 7 bowls, then all 3 are finished at the same time which is at the very end of the trib!
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Jesus put the Signs of Seal Six on one of the days AFTER the G.T. So the half-hour of Seal Seven is also AFTER the G.T. Not "half a trib away" as you envision! That would put God's wrath 3 1/2 years AFTER the END of the G.T!

The 7th Seal "replays" six of the seven Trumpets for "about a half hour"
before the Angel of Fire renders the Verdict by casting coals of fire to the earth. That evidence includes the killing of a third of mankind. The Last Martyr has been killed before the 7th Seal opens for the Court of Dan.7
ON THE DAY Christ "comes with the saints". Dan.7:22,27.

Compare Rev.6:17 and Rev.16:17 and know that the DAY of God's wrath requires the armies that had destroyed two billion people have been gathered to Armageddon before the DAY of Wrath begins!! "No one can enter the Temple in heaven (to announce God's wrath has come) until the 7th Vial empties in the air". Rev.15:8.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[skypair]

To the Self-Acclaimed "Real Student of Eschatology":


If you think Jesus is warning Believers in Luke 21:22-36, then you miss the fact that the Day of the Lord will NOT overtake us suddenly, by surprise.

2Pet 3:10 ("But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;...") disagrees with you, Mel. No mention of believers or no. The DOTL is the tribulation and the MK combined (Israel's time) ending in "in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." There is not DOTL for the church -- only DoC, the rapture and Bema.

If you come to understand Jesus warns Jews who are not convinced of His warning until that DAY comes SUDDENLY as a "thief", and therefore they were unprepared, they instantly become candidates to "mourn and beg to escape all the things happening on that Day". They "stand erect and look up and begin to mourn" when they see the SIGNS of that DAY.

He warns all of us in Luke. In Luke, Jesus is pictured as the "Son of man" ---- one of us. That is why His warning is different in Luke than in Matthew - different in emphasis.

If you come to understand Jews SUDDENLY recall the teaching of the Two
Prophets (and of Zechariah) that they would see Him coming ON THE DAY OF THE LORD, you also will realize "their redemption ... and their kingdom are near". As they SEE HIM APPEAR, they will "continue to mourn and beg to escape and to prevail in standing before the Son of Man". They "stand erect" at the SIGNS but SUDDENLY embrace the Son of Man and begin to mourn at the "HOUR of Trial" when Jesus appears!

You're no doubt looking at Zech 12:10 and Joel 2:12-32. Those are MIDTRIB, bro. There's no "standing erect" for the Jews on the day of Christ's return -- look at Zech 14:3. Jesus splits the mount of Olives and the Jews flee through the valley.

See, in between your account in Zech 12:10 and mine in 14:3 is the gathering of the armies to Armageddon, 13:7. But also, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for the angels to miss the tares that were left behind. And there would be NO AC armies for Armageddon if the order was as you stipulate.

I know that many believe that all you have to have when Christ returns is "praying hands" and you'll be spared. My friend, Jesus already told us what we need to do. Don't rush back to your house -- don't even climb down off the roof (Luke 17). And there, "lift up your heads for your redemption [not pardon] draws nigh." (Luke 21) The angels gather the elect to Jerusalem for the judgment (Matt 24:31 - 25:14-46).

But your fanciful scenario would, unlike most postrib accounts, preserve some to repopulate the MK, right? That's what you were going for, after all. Totally unnecessary if the rapture is pretrib. Other saints would be converted throughout the trib and many of them survive.

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Trib

skypair, self-styled expert on eschatology,

The Scritpures which you claim to be MIDTRIB are actually POSTRIB!!
IMO, your conclusion belies your claim of being a "Real Student":

Your Quote Proves my point:
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But your fanciful scenario would, unlike most postrib accounts, preserve some to repopulate the MK, right? That's what you were going for, after all. Totally unnecessary if the rapture is pretrib. Other saints would be converted throughout the trib and many of them survive.
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Note the "IF" in your conclusion. My friend in the faith, that's because you use none but POSTRIB scripture to promote your "fanciful scenario" of a Pretrib Rapture! But thanks for your admission that "many Postrib Saints will survive". They will be "gathered from earth to heaven on one of the days
immediately AFTER the great tribulation". Mark 13:24,27; Matt.24:29,31.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Ed Edwards]

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,

Two events mentioned here:
1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2) our gathering together unto him

Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Two events mentioned here:
1) blessed hope
2) the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

These two events are mentioned seperately
throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which
was a mystery in the O.T. is now mentioned
in the N.T.

Rapture Passages (the gathering, the blessed hope):

Matthew 24:31-44 (in the Mount Olivet Discourse
---/mod/ and parallel passages in Mark 13 & Luke 21)
John 14:1-3
Romans 8:19
1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
1 Timothy 6:14
2 Timothy 4:1,8
Hebrews 9:28
1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
1 John 2:28-3:2
Jude 1:21
Revelation 2:25

Second Advent Passages
(Jesus comes again in power and glory
to defeat the antichrist and set up the
millinnial kingdom):

Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
Matthew 13:41
Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
Mark 13
Luke 21
Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
1 Thessalonians 3:13
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
1 Peter 4:12-131
2 Peter 3:1-14
Jude 1:14-15
Revelation 4-19

 

[skypair]

Mel,

I love discussing with you, you are sooo naive! :love2:

First, if the rapture came tomorrow, would YOU be surprised?

Well, that's how Mt 24:42, 2Thes 5:4, and 2Pet 3:10 says it will happen!

As they SEE HIM APPEAR, they will "continue to mourn and beg to escape and to prevail in standing before the Son of Man". They "stand erect" at the SIGNS but SUDDENLY embrace the Son of Man and begin to mourn at the "HOUR of Trial" when Jesus appears!

Where are you getting this?? Luke 21?? Friend, there will be "mourning" but it will be MIDTRIB just before Gog sweeps down from Russia. Look at Joel 2:12-30 to see that Israel, on the eve of the Russian invasion, will have THEIR PENTECOST!! THAT is the mourning -- to which God kills 5/6's of Gog's armies in northern Israel, Joel 2:30!! You got the wrong timing on your "begging" and the wrong application of Luke 21:36. Luke 21:36 is for the CHURCH to avoid the "snares" of AC!!

Next --- so your "hours" are multiple times? One midtrib and one end thereof?


And the "IF." That's "IF" for you to consider. I already know what I believe is true.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Mel,

skypair, self-styled expert on eschatology,

WOW!! My first "battlefield promotion!! :laugh: :laugh:

But thanks for your admission that "many Postrib Saints will survive".

No thanks necessary, mate. If it's "in the book," I'll agree every time!! You just won't catch me agreeing with that next part --

"They will be "gathered from earth to heaven on one of the days immediately AFTER the great tribulation".

For what purpose gathered TO heaven? Mt 24:31, indeed, says they will be gathered FROM heaven.

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Trib

Mel,

WOW!! My first "battlefield promotion!! :laugh: :laugh:

No thanks necessary, mate. If it's "in the book," I'll agree every time!! You just won't catch me agreeing with that next part --

For what purpose gathered TO heaven? Mt 24:31, indeed, says they will be gathered FROM heaven.

skypair

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Your "promotion" fails to submit to the simplicity of the truth of being "gathered UNTO Jesus" at the Synagogue in the Sky. This is the easiest question I have ever answered:

"For what purpose gathered TO heaven"?

For the Bride TO meet the Bridegroom after the 144,000 Firstfruit unto God and the Lamb are taken above first to present the Lamb in song to the Ancient of Days as the worthy Son of Man, their Bridegroom! "They will follow the Lamb wherever He goes"; AND the Martyrs will "serve God as Pillars in the Temple of Heaven for 1000 years while overcomers and survivers to the End reign over the nations on the earth". Rev.14:1-5; Rev.3:10-12; Rev.7:13-15; Rev.20:4-6.

That's the glory and Presence of Jesus overlooked in your BASICS.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Ed Edwards]

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 3 Sept 2005;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Trib

EE,

With all your knowledge, how amazing that you have never quoted the words of Jesus: "HE WILL RAISE UP ALL BELIEVERS ON THE LAST DAY"!

Is this not an offense to Jesus Himself??

Mel

 

[skypair]

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Your "promotion" fails to submit to the simplicity of the truth of being "gathered UNTO Jesus" at the Synagogue in the Sky. This is the easiest question I have ever answered:

"For what purpose gathered TO heaven"?

For the Bride TO meet the Bridegroom after the 144,000 Firstfruit unto God and the Lamb are taken above first to present the Lamb in song to the Ancient of Days as the worthy Son of Man, their Bridegroom! "They will follow the Lamb wherever He goes"; AND the Martyrs will "serve God as Pillars in the Temple of Heaven for 1000 years while overcomers and survivers to the End reign over the nations on the earth". Rev.14:1-5; Rev.3:10-12; Rev.7:13-15; Rev.20:4-6.

That's the glory and Presence of Jesus overlooked in your BASICS.

I want whatever he's smokin'!! :laugh:

Synagogue in the skies!? Rev 14 sees the 144,000 on the earth hearing from heaven those who, like them, will LIVE THROUGH the tribulation -- sea of fire -- and enter into the tabernacle, the MK temple! It's symbology, Mel. Those they hear singing ARE the survivors of the trib!!

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Trib

I want whatever he's smokin'!! :laugh:

Synagogue in the skies!? Rev 14 sees the 144,000 on the earth hearing from heaven those who, like them, will LIVE THROUGH the tribulation -- sea of fire -- and enter into the tabernacle, the MK temple! It's symbology, Mel. Those they hear singing ARE the survivors of the trib!!

skypair

Your flippant attitutde does not make up for lack of understanding nor cover up for lack of perspective.

For you to even suggest that the 144,000 enter the Millennial Kingdom Temple in Rev.15:5 instead of participating in the "presentation and the Coronation of the Son of Man in heaven" on the Last Day reveals the
lack of both. Whatever your smoking doesn't explain away their singing the Song of the Lamb before the "smoke of God's power and glory" clears the heavenly Temple! Nor does it recognize the glory of the Son of Man
when He takes them into the Presence of the Ancient of Days!!

Their song and the song of Moses, sung by the Martyrs in joint concert,
is the occasion for the only "Great and Wonderful Sign" in Heaven!!!

Enough said.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2: