What is repentance?

Dr. Bob,

I realize you are busy man, being moderator and all and may not respond to this - but here goes anyway.

I think you know if you have read any of my other posts that while I have a sharp disagreement with MacArthur, I also do not agree with the Hyles mentality either. Belief must be in the heart, not just head, and yes I agree that belief does result in change - but then the question always comes how much change? For me thats real debate.

I want to zoom in this statement of yours:

If "repentance from sin" is part of the "salvation equation" could you please supply some scriptures from the New Testament here for our discussion that say one must repent[turn from] of their sins in order to be saved.

Thanks

IFBReformer

 

The only way, when we witness to a person, we must always emphasis to a person about the mean of sin. Explain to person, why we all have to die? Explain to a person that we all must to die because of sin, also, we all will die becaus eof Adam sinned and he died according Romans 5:12.

Explain to a person, that we all cannot reach God's place - heaven, because we all are already sinnner, period. - Romans 3:23. Our good works cannot bring us into heaven by our own self. Because we all have sinned. Not because of we are bad or good. We ALREADY get sin born from our parent, come from Adam, because he sinned - Romans 5:12.

Explain to a perosn, WHAT is sin means. We all know what is the mean of sin. But, we have to explain to a person, what is sin means.

Also, explain to a person, that we are already have sin, and we will die because of sin, period. And what the result of our beyond death, where we go, to hell.

No way that we can escape from hell, because we already born as sinner come from Adam.

But, tell to a person about good news. Tell a person about Jesus Christ. Tell person that Christ died on the cross for our sins. Christ washed our sins away through His blood. Also tell a person that Christ risen from the death, He is alive.

Tell to a person, 'Do you believe Christ died on the cross for you and your sins?' Person would say, 'Yes'. Then, tell to a person, 'Do you believe Christ risen from the death, and He is alive?' Person would say, 'Yes'.

THEN, explain to a person that God hates sins, because He is holy. God wants a person to repent from sin. Tell person, that sins would lead a person to death and go to hell. Tell person to turn away from old habits of sins, know that commit many sins are wrong against God. Tel, person to admit to Jesus Christ, that person doing sins against God, ask for sorry and forgive of sins to Christ, willing give up old habits of sins, and ask Christ for fogive sins, want to follow Christ's way, doing right things for Christ.

You tell to a person, that a person don't have to be fancy say something in 'prayer'. Just ask Christ, for tell sorry for wrong doings and sin against Christ/God, believe Christ died for me and my sins, and know you are live, I believe you, and want to follow you and doing the right things for you.

I know many people do not know how to prayer, and what would to say to Christ in prayer. The only way you tell to a person, just ask to Jesus just like ask your father(earthly father) to tell for sorry, and I will not do it again. That's simple.

I notice many IFB churches on their soul winning methods. Most people say nothing, many IFB 'soul winners' say something in prayer FOR person to be saved. That is wrong. Also, I notice some IFB churches use in their soul winning method, when in prayer, IFB 'soul winner' always tell to a person to be copy of prayer together- For example, a soul winner saying to a perosn, "Please copy me of prayer." Then a perosn would say, 'ok.' When a person listens to a soul winner's voice of prayer, then a person speaks by copy from soul winner's voice for prayer same time. That's wrong.

IFB's biggest lack of soul winning method is, not enough warning of staying in same old habits beyond salvation, explaing to a perosn about repentance. Most IFB churches use of their method of 'Easy Believism' in soul winning to people. Just ask them to say, "I believe..." That's it. But, in many cases, most of people who heard witness from soul winner, do not growing in the Lord, stay in the old ways.

IFB's second biggest lack of soul winning method is. Many IFB leave people out, lack of being discipleship with people. Do not have time to encourge people to growing in the Lord. Most IFB do soul winning, just 'win' person to Christ, then hop or jump witness other person, 'win' another person to Christ, then hop or jump to another person...... never have time to focus on a baby Christian learning to be growing in the Lord. Many IFB churches leave people out. Most people who heard witness from IFB, stay in their old habit ways, do not growing in the Lord.

I fear that many IFB churches leave people out, allowing many people are on the way to hell, because of lack on discipleship.

Many IFB churches must be realized discipleship is soooo important for every person need to be growing in the Lord faithfully, and we do not let person slip away and leave out like as we are shepherd, leave lost sheep out - Luke 15:4-5.

When we witness to a person, we MUST explain to perosn about sin, warn them, do not stay in old habits of sin, or if stay in old habits of sins all the way to death will go to hell. Tell person to stop doing old habits of sin. Turn away from old habits of sin, and ask Christ for forgiven of sins, and tell Christ, do not doing them again anymore, and follow Him.

I not yet discuss on 'repent' with scriptures. Tomorrow, I will discuss more on repent with verses, what these saying about repent.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Dr. Tim:

I will try and take a stab at this for you.

My witnessing method depends on who I am witnessing to.

I live the D.C. area and run into a lot of different people from different backgrounds - from Hindus, Muslims, Catholics, and even good old fashion Virginia Baptists.

For instance I took a cab home the other day was with a Muslim cab driver. He was very strict and did all his prayers each day. I took the opportunity to tell him I used to work with another Muslim man and learned much about what they think. I asked him if he knew what the New Testament said about Jesus Christ.

He responded that he knew Christians thought Jesus was God - we both agreed this was considered a great sin by the Koran. He really wanted to know why God would lower himself to become a man and why he had to die on the cross(something muslims reject that he did).

I told him one of the attributes of God is that his is also humble, and that Christ humbled himself and took on the form of a servant.
He still struggled with this. He told me he was not ready to accept this and believed we were all going to heaven if we believed in God.

I pointed him to the fact that Bible and the Koran say constradicting things, and both cannot be right. If the Koran is right, then I am going to hell for believing Jesus is God. If the Bible is right then he would perish for rejecting Christ as God and Savior.

He was not ready to believe, but I planted the seed. A Hyles person would have tried to seal the deal, right in the car - get him to say a prayer with no concern for his heart. I knew I had planted the seed, and it is up to God to make it grow.

I have also witnessed to American "Churched" people. People who went to church when they were little or something like that.

I ask them if they have ever placed they faith and trust in Christ as there Lord and Savior.
If they tell me yes, then I ask them what he saved them from.
If they tell me he saved them from their sin, and payed their penalty on the cross then I ask them again point blank - do you believe he paid the penalty for your sin?
Then I ask them, is Christ's death on the cross and his payment for sins the only way someone can be saved or are there other ways? If they answer no we continue on. If they do not believe Christ is the only way then they have completely missed the message of the Gospel and it never penetrated their heart.

If they maintain that Jesus Christ is the only way, that they have accepted him as their Lord and Savior - then I ask them this question -
If you have accepted him as your Lord, why are you not living as such? Why do you forsake the assemblying of the saints together(church)? Why are you not in his Word daily seeking his will?
God wants you to grow, he wants you to be with his people.

You need to make your relationship with the Lord right today - you need to get back in church and serve him, get in his Word and learn more about the Lord who saved you.

What about if I don't think they are saved?

I will point them to the fact that Jesus Christ is the only way, the is a central tenet of the Gospel - if you believe he is a way, and not THE way, you cannot be saved.

If they have never felt real conviction for sin, I will point them to God's law in the Bible, and show them how they have broken God's law. That we are all sinners in need of Savior - Jesus Christ is that one and only Savior.

If they will simply call on God in Faith, accept the penalty Christ bore for them, asking for and accepting his forgiveness for their sins confessing and believing in their heart that Jesus Christ is God - they will be saved.

I hope this gives an idea.

IFBReformer

 

See,,, this is what angers me about folks on the board. They huff and puff about the sins of easy believism and how many untold millions will burn in hell with the false hope given to them..... but when someone challenges them to witness..they back out quick.
I am going to lay this out clear for all of you.. you can take it how you want it...
there are two ways that are prevalent today...
one includes repentance, and one does not.
What IFB Reformer just posted is the exact way I do it.
My problem with the Hyles type (I have worked with them for long long time)is they aim for intellectual acceptance of historical facts. For the life of me, I dont know why they cant see the passage in James which says the devil believes also.
A person must believe, AND he must have a penitent heart. Repentance (and this is the key) is not the one-by-one putting away of everything you ever done wrong, like going through a list of sins and marking them off as something you have considered and decided to turn from.. NO..repentance is a condition of the heart where sometimes a person might not understand the implications of it all.. but it is his heart's SINCERE desire to turn from sin. You have easy believism as preached in the Phoster method, and then you have Lordship preached by some famous folks, and the TRUTH lies smack in the middle.

Salvation is the first step in discipleship. Some folks are trying to say discipleship leads to salvation.. and you just need to be careful with that kind of "witnessing".

I wrote my masters thesis on John MacArthur's "Gospel According to Jesus". I had to read the sequel.. "Faith Works". I want to encourage all of you to read these two books. I am a little extreme in my dispensational leanings, I just wanted to encourage you and then maybe you can read Hodges book "Absolutely Free".

A story: When I began with my first IFB church plant, the man who was over me (I was the one who set up the plant itself, but this man was the existing pastor of a small ministry that was going to become the new church) was someone that most of us would say does not include the true gospel in his witnessing.
I was given, two weeks straight, the privilege of witnessing in a private room to young men from the local high school. Neither of them understood the message of salvation, even with the miming abilities of two very dramatic presenters. When the witnessing time had ended and we all went back to the main room, the pastor asked.. ok.. you want to tell us about this youngman's decision. I signed to him.. He is not saved.
The pastor said OH.
Next week, same thing, and sure enough, I found myself sitting across from him in his office. "Do you really know how to lead someone to the Lord?"
I said that I do know how. He said.."two weeks straight, these teens have raised their hands and neither of them are saved." I tried to explain they simply did not have the understanding.. we tried our best to explain, but they are borderline mentally retarded. He scoffed..and really I did not get another chance with the teens in that group. He did not feel I knew what I was doing.

It's VERY EASY to get someone to copy a prayer... but is this salvation?

 

I agree with you 100%! I will say that I actually think there are 5 positions in this area:

1.Hyles(far left easy believism - cares only for intellect and not heart knowledge -seal the deal)

2.Hodges and Ryrie - Free Grace(emphasizes head and heart knowledge, but implies too little of salvation's changing power)

I will admit it is sometimes difficult to see the difference between Hyles and Ryrie, but the difference is there - it would be a interesting study to highlight those differences.

3.My Position just to right of Ryrie - Salvation does comes from heart belief, not just head belief. If our we believe in our heart, there will be change, that change may be greater or smaller in different believers, but it will be there. That change may come at different rates, and it may even seem to stall for months or years in some cases, but it still is there.
I disagree with Ryrie and Hodges that a true believer can become Apostate in his heart. But I also disagree with MacArthur on the other side that a true believer could never deny Christ with his lips in a time of fear or persecution. Peter denied Christ in a time of fear, but he never lost the heart belief that Jesus was the Christ - he was a true believer.

4.Semi-MacArthur Position
I have met many Pastors who mostly agree with MacArthur, but just don't agree with some of his conclusions or statements.

5.MacArthur Position(Lordship)
Then we have the die-hard Lordship advocates who believe exactly what MacArthur believes and concludes in this area. A true believer cannot stall in his growth, and if he is a true believer his life will be a pattern of righteousness with only momments of failure. Assurance is based upon the pattern of righteousness in ones life. When witnessing, this position would put surrender of life first before one could be saved by Christ. Salvation is seen more through the lense of a Master-Servant relationship, then a Father adopting a child relationship. Salvation in MacArthur's view is a gift exchange, we give ourselves to Christ and in return in gives us salvation.

IFBReformer

 

Mark 1:15 The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luke 13:3 but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death

 

Mark 1:15 The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent[change your mind] ye, and believe the gospel.

Luke 13:3 but, except ye repent[change your mind], ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance[changing of minds] and remission[forgivness] of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent[change your mind], and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 3:19 Repent[change your mind] ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance[changed your minds] to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death </font>[/QUOTE]I was waiting for someone to do what you have just done. Where is repent of your sins to be saved in these passages? All of them say repent but not "of your sins" - some show the remission of sins but nothing says repent of your sins so you can be saved.

They all tell us to repent(change our minds) and believe. So what are we to change our minds about? That is what we are discussing.

I believe the repentance(changed mind) that God requires for salvation is one in which the unbeliever changes his mind about his sin, he recognizes his sin before God understanding that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for sin - seeks forgivness for his sins and he believes the Jesus Christ was indeed God in the flesh and takes him as his one and only Lord and Savior.

Now as a Soverign grace advocate, I believe God grants this repentance(changed mind) but that is what is required - so from a human perspective it seems as the unbeliever has changed his mind, but from God's perspective we know that God has changed this person's heart and mind.

I think it would be accurate to say as some others here have said that repentance that leads to salvation involves an attitude change toward sin. At the momment of our salvation, God shows us the utter wretchedness of our sins, we no longer view our sin as harmless, but in fact a violation of God's holy law.

But repentance that leads to salvation is not taking down a list of our sins before we come to Christ, pledging to give up each of those sins. In fact we cannot give up any sin until we are in Christ and saved. Some believers are able to gain victory over certain sins the momment they are saved, others it takes years and still others never gain victory over certain sins.

IFBReformer

 

Mark 1:15 The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent[turn from sin] ye, and believe the gospel.

Luke 13:3 but, except ye repent[turn from sin], ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance[turning from sin] and remission[forgivness] of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent[turn from sin], and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 3:19 Repent[Turn from sin] ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance[turning from sin] to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death

I don't think we disagree, but are simply debating deffinitions, I believe repent means "to turn", you believe repent means "changing your mind". One can "change their mind" about a sin, know a sin is wrong, but choose to knowingly continue to live in that sin, they may have "changed their mind", but they have not "turned" away from that sin and to Christ. When you realize (change your mind) that sin is wrong, and you repent (turn from sin) and put your faith in Christ you become a Christian, and as you are saved by faith you must live by faith, confessing and repenting of sins daily. We are saved by grace through faith and will continue to be, being saved by grace through faith.

Your right, no one stops sinning the momment they are saved, but until they turn away from that sin, they can not be freed from the bondages of that sin. No one can put their faith in Christ without first "changing their mind" and "turning from their sin". There are many sins that we may not even be aware of untill after we put our faith in Christ and recieve His salvation, then through the conviction of the Holy Spirit these sins are made known to us and we confess and repent of those sins.

So without the "changing of the mind" and the "turning from sin", one has not shown true repentance and can not become a Christian by saying a simple "sinners prayer" based on some head knowledge about the death, burial and ressurection of Christ.

 

First of all "PAUL33", you need more prayer for your head than your finger!
Now let me give you something on Repentance.
Luke 15:18
1. "I have sinned against heaven" that's a strong conviction of sin.
2. "and before thee" a Godly contrition of sin.
3. "and am no more worthy to be called thy son" honest confession of sin.
4.:Make me as one of thy hired servants" permanent turning of the heart from sin.

 

Yes repent can mean "to turn" and or a "change of mind". That is not what the disagreement is over. The disagreement is about what your are changing your mind about and what you are turning from.

These passages do not talk of changing your mind about sin or turning from sin. You have to read that into "repent" here.

There are passages that talk directly of turning from sin, such as 2 Corinthians 12:20-21:

To turn from a sin means to stop doing that sin. To turn from unbelief to belief means that you accept you are sinner and seek God's forgiveness for sin - it does not mean that you may never do that sin again - even a few days from the time you repent. I as a Christian try to keep my sins confessed as soon as I know I have done them. But just because I confess a particular sin, and ask God's forgiveness, this is no guarentee that I will not do that sin again - I don't want to in my spirit, but the flesh is weak.

But it also does not mean that God does not forgive me. His forgiveness is boundless. Some churches I grew up in taught that when it came to habitual sins, God does not forgive us until we completely stop doing them. If we confess and ask forgiveness, then do it again, there is no forgiveness for that sin.

So say for instance a guy has a problem with lying. He tells a lie, realizes his sin and asks God to forgive him and help him not lie anymore. Two days later he does it again. God does not forgive him until he completely stops lying.

Simply saying a sinners prayer will save no one -we agree 100% on that. But when a unbeliever puts believes in his heart(not just his head)that Christ is his Lord and Savior, recoginizng his sin, asking forgiveness for sin and accepting Christ's payment for his sin - he is saved. True salvation will bring change - but he may not use all the tools God has made available to him and he may not have victory over certain sins before he dies. Our eternal salvation is not based upon our victory over sin between the time we believe and the time of our death, our salvation is based on Christ's victory over sin and death.

IFBReformer

 

Amen!

Because of Christ's forgivness, shame, guilt and condemnation have no role in helping us live in God’s life, he has removed them in Christ and does not manage them for our growth. We will continue to sin untill the day we are made perfect in heaven, but the difference in one who has repented and put their faith in Christ for their salvation and one who is still "living in sin" is that the first has the daily convictions of the Holy Spirit, while the later doesn't have the Holy Spirit in their life at all.

 

After reading Charles Stanley's "eternal security" book. I also conclude that he holds to Hodges view of salevation and repentance. Some have critize Stanley's book for his position of easy believism.