what is repentance?

[Joe]

Uh, fellers?? Where does the Bible ever say that David ever "repented"?

Or for that matter, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Gideon, Rahab, Jonah, Paul, Thomas, or Peter?

Any verse of Scripture saying this that I somehow missed??

Ed

It doesn't need to say David repented. It's a given. He must have repented if he is called a man after God's own heart. I don't remember Noah repenting, and the others I have to take a minute to remember. They must have repented also.

2 Tim. 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


Acts 11: 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

 

[Brother Bob]

2Sa 15:30 ¶ And David went up by the ascent of [mount] Olivet, and wept as he went up, and had his head covered, and he went barefoot: and all the people that [was] with him covered every man his head, and they went up, weeping as they went up.

1058
bakah
baw-kaw'
a primitive root; to weep; generally to bemoan:--X at all, bewail, complain, make lamentation, X more, mourn, X sore, X with tears, weep.

Close, oh so close. I know, this is not horseshoes...............

 

[Helen]

all you have to do is read Psalms to know David repented!

But what is repentance? The first part is to acknowledge that what you said or did was wrong.

Some people can be sorry for doing the right thing if it caused them problems!

So the first thing is to know what is wrong and acknowledge that.

THEN to wish or want that you had done right instead and to want to do right in the future. This usually means the emotion of sorrow or anger at yourself is present. The sorrow that leads to repentance, though, is not the sorrow about being caught, but the sorrow that you have done
something wrong, and maybe even the actual knowledge that you have offended or at least disobeyed God, and you don't want to.

One last note: plenty of people repent but figure they can fix themselves. This is a hopeless position, although they may not realize it at the time.

 

[Brother Bob]

Hebrew for "repented"

5162
nacham
naw-kham'
a primitive root; properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself):--comfort (self), ease (one's self), repent(-er,-ing, self).

 

[Brother Bob]

all you have to do is read Psalms to know David repented!

But what is repentance? The first part is to acknowledge that what you said or did was wrong.

Some people can be sorry for doing the right thing if it caused them problems!

So the first thing is to know what is wrong and acknowledge that.

THEN to wish or want that you had done right instead and to want to do right in the future. This usually means the emotion of sorrow or anger at yourself is present. The sorrow that leads to repentance, though, is not the sorrow about being caught, but the sorrow that you have done
something wrong, and maybe even the actual knowledge that you have offended or at least disobeyed God, and you don't want to.

One last note: plenty of people repent but figure they can fix themselves. This is a hopeless position, although they may not realize it at the time.

Thanks Helen, I knew we agreed.

 

[Joe]

How are you doing Chessic? Any thoughts?

 

[EdSutton]

Hebrew for "repented"

5162
nacham
naw-kham'
a primitive root; properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself):--comfort (self), ease (one's self), repent(-er,-ing, self).

Thank you, Dr. James Strong. Hang in there; I'll get back to this, a bit later, maybe tomorrow. (Like we haven't had this discussion, before.)

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Sorry but you lost me here.

Actually, it kinda' looks like I lost several with my next to last post, no?

BTW, Helen, I didn't know any ladies were on the thread, or I would not have said "fellers", but probably "Ladies and germs", as 'Uncle Miltie' Berle used to say.

The question still stands, however. Where does the Bible say that any of these individuals "repented"?

It talks about Peter being "converted", (and before he denied the Lord) after he was already saved, I believe.
It tells of Thomas declaring "My Lord and My God!" about Jesus. (And early Church tradition tells us he was martyred in India for this faith.)
It tells of Saul/Paul speaking about his past life, as before "a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man" who watched the robes of the mob while they stoned Stephen, and "was in hearty agreement with their putting him to death". It tells of his being 'called and separated by God' to take the message to the Gentile world.
It talks about Rahab, the prostitute, being justified, when she, by faith, received the spies. It doesn't say anything about her "repenting" of being a prostitute.
It talks about Jacob swindling Esau and Laban, and by faith "blessing his sons" as an old man, just before he died. It doesn't say Jacob "repented" of 'ripping off' his own family.
It talks about David commiting adultery and murder. It talks about David "confessing" his sin, and being 'a man after God's own heart', and conquering kingdoms and obtaining promises.
It also talks about what Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Gideon, and Jonah, all did "by/through faith." (Heb. 11) And it tells us that "All these were approved through their faith," (Heb. 11:39a - HCSB), and not that they 'All were approved because they "repented of their sins".' [In fact, the only human individual ever specifically said in the OT to 'repent' is Job. (Job 42:6), although God is said to repent (or not repent) 30 times.]

Did they 'repent', in the sense that one must believe/repent (or have repentance/faith) in order to be saved? Absolutely, and without question!

That necessary repentance is defined in Scripture as "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21 - NKJV) and "repentance from dead works and faith toward God" (Heb. 6:1 - NKJV). It is not said to be directed at sin, anywhere.

The Son of God took care of the sin problem once and for all time at the cross, and proved it by coming out of the grave. He doesn't need any of our help in that.

That word rendered "repentance" is the Greek word "metanoia" meaning a change of mind. And that change of mind or repentance which is the 'flip-side' of believe/faith toward God is what is necessary for salvation, not some supposed "change of mind about or sorrow for our sin(s)."

Joe has that part of it exactly right.

Are you hearing this, Chessic?

And I gotta' get some sleep, now. G'nite, all.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

That word rendered "repentance" is the Greek word "metanoia" meaning a change of mind. And that change of mind or repentance which is the 'flip-side' of believe/faith toward God is what is necessary for salvation, not some supposed "change of mind about or sorrow for our sin(s)."

Are you saying you rejoiced over your sins Ed, or did you feel "unworthy", like the rest of us because of your sins??

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Hebrew for "repented"

5162
nacham
naw-kham'
a primitive root; properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself):--comfort (self), ease (one's self), repent(-er,-ing, self).
Thank you, Dr. James Strong. Hang in there; I'll get back to this, a bit later, maybe tomorrow. (Like we haven't had this discussion, before.)

Ed

yea, but I am getting better at it.............

Repentance in Greek
3341
metanoia
metanoia
met-an'-oy-ah
from metanoew - metanoeo 3340; (subjectively) compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication, reversal (of (another's) decision):--repentance.

 

[Brother Bob]

Actually, it kinda' looks like I lost several with my next to last post, no?

BTW, Helen, I didn't know any ladies were on the thread, or I would not have said "fellers", but probably "Ladies and germs", as 'Uncle Miltie' Berle used to say.

The question still stands, however. Where does the Bible say that any of these individuals "repented"?

1Ch 21:16And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders [of Israel, who were] clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.

 

[Chessic]

I appreciate all the responses, and yes I am reading them all. In the past I have struggled somewhere between the position Helen described and feeling like "well if I continue to commit the same old sins, even if less often, and even if I admit I am wrong to do them and feel awful about them, I must not have repented because I'm still doing them."

There are more new (to me) ideas on this thread than I expected, and I am doing my best to understand them. The idea that repentance wasn't detailed in the case of some of the OT figures is something for me to ponder. Though I do believe in the case of David, the Psalms and his reaction to Nathan are proofs of repentance, and sorrow for that matter.

With Paul's talk of "doing what he does not want to do" and therefore it is not him doing it, I wonder.... Perhaps repentance is a bigger, broader idea, less focused on sin and more on recognizing God's authority and the rightness of His Way. Maybe it is just rejecting my ways and pursuing His ways, not matter how often I sin or fail. If that is the case, I truly have repented, though I do have to correct my course at times.

 

[Joe]

I don't believe the definition of repentance is a feeling or even encompasses a feeling necessarily. This is what BB keeps coming back to, due to his personal experience and other biblical examples of repentance which display sorrow.
It seems repentance usually accompanies a feeling of sorrow, and the feelings are helpful to resist the temptation when/if it arises again.

But if we require a feeling to accomplish anything God wants us to do, or to even call ourselves Christians, some would not have a chance.

We can attack people who do bad things and don't feel bad about them, call them sociopathic (adutlerers, rapists thieves etc) but why should anyone feel bad? Why wait to feel bad remaining to sin against God?


Edited: Btw, Ted Bundy was a killer and rapist, he didn't eat children or offend them. Not that it matters, it's still evil.

Gotta got to work for a while now, then come back and work at home.

 

[Chessic]

I believe he raped and killed women, but I never heard any stories of crimes against children or cannibalism. He claimed to Dr. Dobson that pornography was like an addictive drug that led him deeper into violence. I give him credit for speaking out about it, trying to warn others (or perhaps excuse himself); he could have instead gone silently to his maker's judgment.

 

[Joe]

Yeah, Ted Bundy actually helped me enormously due to his interview. I started guarding my eyes, and teaching my family the same. His words regarding how pornography affected him could have came out of my mouth (-the rape stuff) Not that I was that into it, but it was during that interview that I fully understood it had a huge hold. I really related to him. I believe pornography includes who you hang out with (their attire) watching racy movies & tv shows, glimpses of racy magazines at the supermarket checkouts etc...anything you allow into your mind. http://www.pureintimacy.org/gr/intimacy/understanding/a0000082.cfm Here's the interview if anyone is is interested. I was wrong, he did go after a child

 

[Helen]

I appreciate all the responses, and yes I am reading them all. In the past I have struggled somewhere between the position Helen described and feeling like "well if I continue to commit the same old sins, even if less often, and even if I admit I am wrong to do them and feel awful about them, I must not have repented because I'm still doing them."

There are more new (to me) ideas on this thread than I expected, and I am doing my best to understand them. The idea that repentance wasn't detailed in the case of some of the OT figures is something for me to ponder. Though I do believe in the case of David, the Psalms and his reaction to Nathan are proofs of repentance, and sorrow for that matter.

With Paul's talk of "doing what he does not want to do" and therefore it is not him doing it, I wonder.... Perhaps repentance is a bigger, broader idea, less focused on sin and more on recognizing God's authority and the rightness of His Way. Maybe it is just rejecting my ways and pursuing His ways, not matter how often I sin or fail. If that is the case, I truly have repented, though I do have to correct my course at times.

Don't forget, we are being transformed into the image of Christ. It is not an instantaneous process.

One lesson I think the Lord gave me was regarding rose bushes. Suppose you see a wild rose you want in your garden and transplant it. There is some trimming at the time of transplanting to help it live. But then the pruning and trimming continue on and off for a long time until you have the shape and behavior you want out of the bush. If you were to prune it to the way you wanted it all at once at the beginning, you would kill it.

I think God is a lot more gentle with us than we usually realize. Corrections and changes come one by one with time. Sometimes they come as we become convicted something is wrong and we learn to struggle against it and, finally, through God's grace and help, to win that fight. And sometimes He just sort of sneaks the changes in on His own!

But we are most certainly not perfect all at once. Still, when I look back at what I was and how far He has brought me, that gives me so much encouragement when I look at how far I still have to go.

 

[TCGreek]

Yeah, Ted Bundy actually helped me enormously due to his interview. I started guarding my eyes, and teaching my family the same. His words regarding how pornography affected him could have came out of my mouth (-the rape stuff) Not that I was that into it, but it was during that interview that I fully understood it had a huge hold. I really related to him. I believe pornography includes who you hang out with (their attire) watching racy movies & tv shows, glimpses of racy magazines at the supermarket checkouts etc...anything you allow into your mind. http://www.pureintimacy.org/gr/intimacy/understanding/a0000082.cfm Here's the interview if anyone is is interested. I was wrong, he did go after a child

1. Here's my question Joe or anyone who is willing to answer: Is there a sin that God is unable to deliver us from?

2. Was the sin of Ted Bundy worse than the sin of Saul of Tarsus, who was persecuting the bride of Christ?

 

[Brother Bob]

Sorry about mistaken Ted Bundy for the one who ate young boys, cooked them on the stove and ate them. That is a sin, I just couldn't deal with. His name is Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer. I just think he went too far.

I am glad salvation is of the Lord and not me.

BBob,

1. Here's my question Joe or anyone who is willing to answer: Is there a sin that God is unable to deliver us from?

1Ti 4:1¶Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Ti 4:2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Tts 1:15Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

2Th 2:11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Gen 6:3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man,

TC; I thought you were a Calvinist who believed that there are those who God will not forgive if they were not prechosen??

 

[Helen]

1. Here's my question Joe or anyone who is willing to answer: Is there a sin that God is unable to deliver us from?

He is ABLE to deliver us from anything. However He has stated He is not WILLING to deliver us from choosing to rebel unless we want to be delivered.

2. Was the sin of Ted Bundy worse than the sin of Saul of Tarsus, who was persecuting the bride of Christ?

It depends on how you are looking at sin. If you are looking at it as a violation of the law, and thus an insult to God, all are the same. However if you are looking at it in terms of the effect it has on others, there is a definite difference.

Yes, Ted's sin was worse because he was consciously violating what he knew was right. Saul, however, truly felt he was defending the name of God from a heretic. God set him straight, but understood the heart of the man was zealous for God.

Major difference.

 

[Joe]

Here's my question Joe or anyone who is willing to answer: Is there a sin that God is unable to deliver us from?

2. Was the sin of Ted Bundy worse than the sin of Saul of Tarsus, who was persecuting the bride of Christ?

1. God is able to deliver us from any sin if he chooses. Sin wouldn’t exist without it being a part of his plan. He created sin by creating the angel we call Satan.

2. Imho, both are equal sins because both men attempted to pull folks back to Jesus in the end. I believe Ted Bundy repented to the best his iron seared conscience would allow at the time. Yes, I believe he repented. Saul repented after the vision, so tried to witness for Jesus.
Yet out of emotion, I am tempted to say Ted Bundy’s sin was much worse. Still he granted that interview to Dobson knowing full well who Dr. Dobson was. So both attempted to pull folks to Christ in the end. I recommend people watch that interview if possible. Bundy didn't get graphic, and he is well spoken. I believe he may have been possessed. I have no idea why God didn't deliver his mind from those wicked thoughts sparing all of those innocent people's pain, but he had his reasons.

In and of itself, not considering the whole picture, Ted Bundy's sin was MUCH worse.