What is Repentance?

[RLBosley]

Sorry but you will never convince me that Regeneration preceeds faith and repentance.

OK. It is not an essential for salvation. You are free to disagree. Just don't be like some and falsely accuse Calvinists of worshiping a false god or other nonsense. It's a family squabble.

I detest and abhor the Doctrines of Calvinism.

I find it absolutely disgusting that a God would hold people responsible for sins and rejecting Christ when he is the one who is responsible for not "Regenerating them" or "Electing" them.

It's funny, I said most of the same things about 2 years ago.

I also find it hard to believe Election when the Bible says God so loved the world...

The "so" in John 3:16 is a statement of the means by which God loved the world, not a measure of how much. The HCSB does a great job breaking from tradition and renders the verse more accurately in modern English.

For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. - John 3:16 HCSB

From the HCSB footnotes:

John 3:16 The Gk word houtos, commonly translated in Jn 3:16 as “so” or “so much” occurs over 200 times in the NT. Almost without exception it is an adverb of manner, not degree (for example, see Mt 1:18). It only means “so much” when modifying an adjective (see Gl 3:3; Rv 16:18). Manner seems primarily in view in Jn 3:16, which explains the HCSB‘s rendering.

 

[Winman]

You do know that Spurgeon was a Calvinist and believed that regeneration preceded both faith and repentance?

Spurgeon did claim to be a Calvinist, but he was a very inconsistent one. He did not believe regeneration preceded faith.

"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners."

Spurgeon believed that regeneration and faith occurred simultaneously, and that is correct, but the logical order and scriptural order is that faith must occur first.

Until you believe you are dead in trespasses and sins. How can you be dead in trespasses and sins and regenerate at the same moment? that is a direct contradiction. Only after you believe and your sins are washed away can you be spiritually alive.

And that is exactly what the scriptures say over and over again.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Unless you believe on Jesus, you will die in your sins, so it is impossible to be spiritually alive until you first believe.

Regeneration or being quickened is being forgiven your sins.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

You are regenerated or quickened when all your sins and trespasses are forgiven, and all your sins are forgiven AFTER you believe, we are justified by faith.

All scripture shows faith precedes regeneration, and there is much of it.

 

[psalms109:31]

You do know that Spurgeon was a Calvinist and believed that regeneration preceded both faith and repentance?

I am a Spurgeon Calvinists and he thought regeneration before faith is ridiculous preaching to some one who is alive already is ridiculous. If they are regenerated already there is no need to preach the Gospel to him

Regeneration before faith Spurgeon preached against it it is a residue left over from Hyper-Calvinists and it is not the gospel of Calvinists but hyper-calvinist.

Jesus Christ came to save dead sinners is the Gospel of Calvinist.

You need to read a book called Spurgeon vs Hyper Calvinist the battle for Gospel preaching.

You already said you wouldn't believe it, but Jesus said if you don't eat Him and drink His blood you have no life in you.

We need the medicine first to give you life.

Jesus said Himself that His word is Spirit and life.

What's the point of preaching to the wise and learned they already know the truth and they don't need help they already have the life.

I praise you Father for you have hidden the truth from the wise and learned and given it to children who want to learn the truth.

You can believe what you want but I was dead to sin when I came to Christ and now I am alive in Him praise Jesus.

 

[RLBosley]

Spurgeon did claim to be a Calvinist, but he was a very inconsistent one. He did not believe regeneration preceded faith.

I have heard this so much, it really is tiring now. Spurgeon was a Calvinist. He was a consistent Reformed Baptist. You can't actually read his writings and conclude otherwise. Have you read his A Defense of Calvinism?

Here are a few choice quotes:

I suppose there are some persons whose minds naturally incline towards the doctrine of free-will. I can only say that mine inclines as naturally towards the doctrines of sovereign grace.

Before there was any created being—when the ether was not fanned by an angel's wing, when space itself had not an existence, when there was nothing save God alone—even then, in that loneliness of Deity, and in that deep quiet and profundity, His bowels moved with love for His chosen. Their names were written on His heart, and then were they dear to His soul. Jesus loved His people before the foundation of the world—even from eternity! and when He called me by His grace, He said to me, "I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee."

He let His heart run out in one deep gaping wound for me long ere I loved Him. Yea, when He first came to me, did I not spurn Him? When He knocked at the door, and asked for entrance, did I not drive Him away, and do despite to His grace? Ah, I can remember that I full often did so until, at last, by the power of His effectual grace, He said, "I must, I will come in;" and then He turned my heart, and made me love Him. But even till now I should have resisted Him, had it not been for His grace.

Did He foresee that I should get that faith myself, and that I should believe on Him of myself? No; Christ could not foresee that, because no Christian man will ever say that faith came of itself without the gift and without the working of the Holy Spirit.

I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross;

There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer—I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me, do I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply, I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it.

---------------------------------------

Spurgeon believed that regeneration and faith occurred simultaneously, and that is correct, but the logical order and scriptural order is that faith must occur first.

In time, yes they are simultaneous. But Spurgeon, Calvinists everywhere, and scripture affirm that, in the logical order, we are first changed, born again, then we exercise faith and repentance.

Until you believe you are dead in trespasses and sins. How can you be dead in trespasses and sins and regenerate at the same moment? that is a direct contradiction. Only after you believe and your sins are washed away can you be spiritually alive.

And that is exactly what the scriptures say over and over again.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Unless you believe on Jesus, you will die in your sins, so it is impossible to be spiritually alive until you first believe.

I'll say it again - Belief in Christ is necessary for salvation. Yes absolutely!

Regeneration and belief occur simultaneously. When Calvinists speak of regeneration preceding faith, it is spoken of in the logical order, not chronological. Big difference.

Regeneration or being quickened is being forgiven your sins.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

You are regenerated or quickened when all your sins and trespasses are forgiven, and all your sins are forgiven AFTER you believe, we are justified by faith.

All scripture shows faith precedes regeneration, and there is much of it.

This verse says absolutely nothing about belief. Let alone when it occurs in the order of salvation.

It says God has made us alive together with Christ, and that God has forgiven us our trespasses.

Now that I think about it, it's a rather Calvinistic verse; We were spiritually dead, unable to do anything about our condition. God made us alive spiritually with Christ, and God has forgiveness all our sins. We are totally passive here and God is the one working.

Have you joined your Calvinist brothers now? Come on over Winman, we have cookies! :wavey:

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

It's funny, I said most of the same things about 2 years ago.

what changed?

 

[RLBosley]

I am a Spurgeon Calvinists and he thought regeneration before faith is ridiculous preaching to some one who is alive already is ridiculous. If they are regenerated already there is no need to preach the Gospel to him

Regeneration before faith Spurgeon preached against it it is a residue left over from Hyper-Calvinists and it is not the gospel of Calvinists but hyper-calvinist.

Jesus Christ came to save dead sinners is the Gospel of Calvinist.

You need to read a book called Spurgeon vs Hyper Calvinist the battle for Gospel preaching.

I haven't yet read the book you mentioned though it is on my list... somewhere.

Do you have a quote or a source for saying that Spurgeon did not believe that regeneration precedes faith?

You already said you wouldn't believe it, but Jesus said if you don't eat Him and drink His blood you have no life in you.

I said no such thing. If something can be proven from the scriptures I will believe it.

We need the medicine first to give you life.

Jesus said Himself that His word is Spirit and life.

What's the point of preaching to the wise and learned they already know the truth and they don't need help they already have the life.

I praise you Father for you have hidden the truth from the wise and learned and given it to children who want to learn the truth.

You can believe what you want but I was dead to sin when I came to Christ and now I am alive in Him praise Jesus.

 

[psalms109:31]

This should be moved to arminian and Calvinist board for people who want to battle it out. You might want to check it out.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

I have heard this so much, it really is tiring now. Spurgeon was a Calvinist. He was a consistent Reformed Baptist. You can't actually read his writings and conclude otherwise. Have you read his A Defense of Calvinism?

Here are a few choice quotes:

I have a hard time seeing how God loved the WORLD, yet didn't elect them the world to salvation.









---------------------------------------



In time, yes they are simultaneous. But Spurgeon, Calvinists everywhere, and scripture affirm that, in the logical order, we are first changed, born again, then we exercise faith and repentance.



I'll say it again - Belief in Christ is necessary for salvation. Yes absolutely!

Regeneration and belief occur simultaneously. When Calvinists speak of regeneration preceding faith, it is spoken of in the logical order, not chronological. Big difference.



This verse says absolutely nothing about belief. Let alone when it occurs in the order of salvation.

It says God has made us alive together with Christ, and that God has forgiven us our trespasses.

Now that I think about it, it's a rather Calvinistic verse; We were spiritually dead, unable to do anything about our condition. God made us alive spiritually with Christ, and God has forgiveness all our sins. We are totally passive here and God is the one working.

Have you joined your Calvinist brothers now? Come on over Winman, we have cookies! :wavey:

I have a hard time seeing how God loved the WORLD, yet didn't elect them the world to salvation.

 

[RLBosley]

what changed?

Do you mean what caused me to change my views or what views of mine have been changed?

If the former, I was politely asked to leave my IFB church since I dared to dissent from the dispensational doctrine and repentance-less evangelism.

As I and a friend on the same journey were without a church and continuing to study we came to see the truth of the doctrines of grace in the scriptures. It was a LONG process as I was very resistant for a long time.

Finally reading through John 10 I saw that Jesus lays his life down for his sheep and only his sheep. That those who do not believe, do not believe because they are not his sheep, not vice versa. I saw that his sheep hear him and follow him and are given eternal life.

That was the final straw.

 

[RLBosley]

This should be moved to arminian and Calvinist board for people who want to battle it out. You might want to check it out.

I agree. I actually mentioned that somewhere previously I think. I usually try to not get involved in the Cal v Arm debates. It's up to the Lord to change someones mind. I can't.

I think that we should leave this subject and return to the OP. Unless Jordan feels we have satisfactorily answered his question. In which case it should be moved or closed.

 

[RLBosley]

I have a hard time seeing how God loved the WORLD, yet didn't elect them the world to salvation.

PM inbound. The Cal v Arm debate has derailed your thread enough. I apologize for that.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

I am wavering very much in this issue of Repentance.

I'm having a very hard time seeing where Repentance means a turning from sin.

But I also see clearly where people turn from idols and turn to Christ.

I can clearly see that Repentance is necessary for salvation.

But how from scripture can we define it?

my fear is that all these people who say repentance means a turning from sin, are just saying that without scriptural basis.

 

[psalms109:31]

You said

"In time, yes they are simultaneous. But Spurgeon, Calvinists everywhere, and scripture affirm that, in the logical order, we are first changed, born again, then we exercise faith and repentance. "


1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

The Calvinism is the Gospel can be summed up in one verse.

http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols37-39/chs2300.pdf

“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus
came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.”
1 Timothy 1:15.

"Now, this text contains the Gospel in brief, and yet I may say that it contains the Gospel in full.If you get condensed , you often miss the very soul and marrow of it, but here you get all the condensation possibilities, as if the great Truths of the Gospel were pressed together by a hydraulic ram , and yet there is not a particle of it left out. It is one of the “little Bibles,” as Luther used to call them—the Gospel in a verse.The essence of the whole Bible is here— “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Matthew 9:
10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’[Hosea 6:6] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

 

[psalms109:31]

I am wavering very much in this issue of Repentance.

I'm having a very hard time seeing where Repentance means a turning from sin.

But I also see clearly where people turn from idols and turn to Christ.

I can clearly see that Repentance is necessary for salvation.

But how from scripture can we define it?

my fear is that all these people who say repentance means a turning from sin, are just saying that without scriptural basis.

We cannot remember all of our sin and repent, so I am taught to that is a turning from self and turning to God.

When we listen and learn from Christ and know what our sin did to Him it does lead to Godly sorrow and repentance turning to Christ and saying sorry for what I, we did to Him.

It changes us, but when we don't listen and learn from Him we would never do any of that in above sentence.

 

[RLBosley]

I am wavering very much in this issue of Repentance.

I'm having a very hard time seeing where Repentance means a turning from sin.

But I also see clearly where people turn from idols and turn to Christ.

I can clearly see that Repentance is necessary for salvation.

But how from scripture can we define it?

my fear is that all these people who say repentance means a turning from sin, are just saying that without scriptural basis.

I believe the best definition of repentance is that it is a Spirit caused change of mind which causes a change of life/actions. It, in itself, is not the change of life, but genuine repentance will invariably lead to that change. As I said before, I disagree with David Cloud a great deal, but his understanding of repentance is spot on.

It is a Spirit-wrought change of mind toward sin and God, such a dramatic change of mind that it changes one’s actions.

REPENTANCE IS NOT MERE HUMAN REFORMATION

REPENTANCE IS NOT PENANCE

REPENTANCE IS NOT MERE REMORSE FOR WRONG ACTIONS

REPENTANCE IS NOT MERE CONFESSION OF OR ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF SIN

REPENTANCE IS NOT MERELY CHANGING FROM UNBELIEF TO BELIEF.

REPENTANCE IS NOT MERE CHANGING ONE’S MIND

REPENTANCE IS NOT MERELY THE SAME AS BELIEVING

http://www.wayoflife.org/database/biblical_repentance.html

And scripture does tell people to repent of sin, specific and general.

"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. - Eze 18:30 ESV

Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. - Act 8:22 ESV

I fear that when I come again my God may humble me before you, and I may have to mourn over many of those who sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual immorality, and sensuality that they have practiced. - 2Co 12:21 ESV

I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. - Rev 2:21 ESV

Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, - Rev 2:22 ESV

nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. - Rev 9:21 ESV

And genuine repentance is accompanied by a change. It is not in the mind only.

You recently repented and did what was right in my eyes by proclaiming liberty, each to his neighbor, and you made a covenant before me in the house that is called by my name, - Jer 34:15 ESV

"Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: Repent and turn away from your idols, and turn away your faces from all your abominations. - Eze 14:6 ESV

Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. - Mat 3:8 ESV

"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. - Mat 11:21 ESV

Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. - Luk 3:8 ESV

but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance. - Act 26:20 ESV


It is also clearly necessary for salvation.

and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." - Mar 1:15 ESV

Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, - Act 3:19 ESV

When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life." - Act 11:18 ESV

The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, - Act 17:30 ESV

testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. - Act 20:21 ESV

Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? - Rom 2:4 ESV

For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death. - 2Co 7:10 ESV

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. - 2Pe 3:9 ESV

 

[RLBosley]

You said

"In time, yes they are simultaneous. But Spurgeon, Calvinists everywhere, and scripture affirm that, in the logical order, we are first changed, born again, then we exercise faith and repentance. "


1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

The Calvinism is the Gospel can be summed up in one verse.

http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols37-39/chs2300.pdf

“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus
came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.”
1 Timothy 1:15.

"Now, this text contains the Gospel in brief, and yet I may say that it contains the Gospel in full.If you get condensed , you often miss the very soul and marrow of it, but here you get all the condensation possibilities, as if the great Truths of the Gospel were pressed together by a hydraulic ram , and yet there is not a particle of it left out. It is one of the “little Bibles,” as Luther used to call them—the Gospel in a verse.The essence of the whole Bible is here— “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Matthew 9:
10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’[Hosea 6:6] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

I thought you wanted to leave the Calvinism debate behind? That said, I honestly fail to see how that quote from Spurgeon shows anything regarding the order of salvation in his theology. Of course Christ came to save sinners. That's not the debate.

 

[psalms109:31]

I thought you wanted to leave the Calvinism debate behind? That said, I honestly fail to see how that quote from Spurgeon shows anything regarding the order of salvation in his theology. Of course Christ came to save sinners. That's not the debate.

I do, but we cannot be born again without His word that we are born again by, faith that comes from the words of Jesus has to come first. I rather this go to the calivinist-arminian board, until I read that and I couldn't help myself to address that

 

[RLBosley]

I do, but we cannot be born again without His word that we are born again by, faith that comes from the words of Jesus has to come first. I rather this go to the calivinist-arminian board, until I read that and I couldn't help myself to address that

OK. I'm still missing the connection somehow. I agree that we can't be born again without the word of Christ. People must hear the gospel to believe. Only hyper-Calvinists would disagree.

And I will leave this quote from Spurgeon here:

To believe in Jesus is a better indicator of regeneration than anything else, and in no case did it ever mislead. Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man. (Emphasis mine)
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0979.htm

And with that I am done with the Calvinism debate. :laugh: I'm serious this time! LOL

 

[psalms109:31]

To believe in Jesus is a better indicator of regeneration than anything else, and in no case did it ever mislead. Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man. (Emphasis mine)
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0979.htm

Praise God if we are born again by His word we are regenerated, without that seed we are dead. I pray we do not let trials and tribulation choke out the seed before it takes root, and makes us the new creation in Christ.

Good Night!

 

[Yeshua1]

Simply put, What is it?

And is it necessary for Salvation?

Your thoughts?

Yes, as its a sinner changing his views on his own sinfulness, and that he can do NOTHING of His own, no good works, to save himself!

Good news is that its the work of the Holy Spirit to grant us "godly repentance!"