What is sin nature?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: It's nice to agree on something, isn't it?

HP: Absolutely! Relish the moment!

God calls on men to repent or perish. If men are born sinners, as original sin mandates, and men never had the possibility of being anything other than a sinner, how does one repent for something he had no choice in and is part of the nature God created him with?
…..and to think so many draw circles around their fellowships by requiring adherence to this Augustinian myth. :tear:

 

[DHK]

HP: Absolutely! Relish the moment!

God calls on men to repent or perish. If men are born sinners, as original sin mandates, and men never had the possibility of being anything other than a sinner, how does one repent for something he had no choice in and is part of the nature God created him with?
…..and to think so many draw circles around their fellowships by requiring adherence to this Augustinian myth. :tear:

You need to rephrase your post:
God calls on man to repent or perish. If men are born sinners as the Bible teaches, then they need to trust Christ as their Saviour in order to be saved from the penalty of that sinned.
That is what the Bible teaches and it has nothing to do with Augustine. Why you bring Albert into this discussion I will never know. Albert (Augustine) made guitar strings.
The only sin that sends a person to Hell is the rejection of Jesus Christ, and His payment on the cross for their sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: You need to rephrase your post:
God calls on man to repent or perish. If men are born sinners as the Bible teaches, then they need to trust Christ as their Saviour in order to be saved from the penalty of that sinned.
That is what the Bible teaches and it has nothing to do with Augustine. Why you bring Albert into this discussion I will never know. Albert (Augustine) made guitar strings.
The only sin that sends a person to Hell is the rejection of Jesus Christ, and His payment on the cross for their sin.

HP: OK. I will simply quote the passage I am referring to. “Unless ye repent ye shall all likewise perish.” ‘Repent or perish’ was simply my shortened paraphrase.

As for the ‘rejection of Jesus Christ’ as being the ‘only sin that sends a person to hell’ …you wouldn’t have a Scripture that actually states that would you? If not, says who?

 

[Amy.G]

HP: OK. I will simply quote the passage I am referring to. “Unless ye repent ye shall all likewise perish.” ‘Repent or perish’ was simply my shortened paraphrase.

As for the ‘rejection of Jesus Christ’ as being the ‘only sin that sends a person to hell’ …you wouldn’t have a Scripture that actually states that would you? If not, says who?

I'm not DHK, but I feel like talking. :tongue3:

This is the scripture that I always refer to:

Jhn 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am [He], you will die in your sins."


If you refuse to believe in the Son of God as Savior, your sins will not be covered by His blood. Just as the blood of the passover lamb had to be applied to the doorposts, we must apply the blood of the Savior to ourselves through faith. This is the only way for our sins to be blotted out. Otherwise, we will stand before God in the judgement with our sins intact and the wrath of God will abide on us. (John 3:36)

If you don't believe, you will go to hell, but it is because your sins are still on your account since you refused the only remedy.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

John 3:18 is a verse that DHK and others have set forth in times past to substantiate that the only damning sin is the rejection of Jesus Christ. That is a clearly Calvinistic notion without the least bit of Scriptural evidence to support such a notion.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned:

HP: This simply stated merely acknowledges all that have heard and have accepted the gospel message and fulfilled its stated conditions are not condemned, but have passed from death to life. It does not state or imply that all have heard the gospel by any stretch of the imagination, nor that all will. It certainly does not state that the only sin that sends men to hell is the rejection of Jesus Christ.

“but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

HP: This simply stated merely acknowledges the fact that if all have sinned, and one has not heard and accepted the gospel, they are in a state of condemnation until such a time as one believes in the name of the only begotten Son of God, which would clearly include fulfilling all conditions of salvation required by God. It does not state or imply that all have heard the gospel by any stretch of the imagination, nor that all will. It certainly does not state that the only sin that sends men to hell is the rejection of Jesus Christ. Rejection of Jesus Christ is not mentioned or even alluded to at all in this text.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: If you don't believe, you will go to hell, but it is because your sins are still on your account since you refused the only remedy.

HP: Refusing the remedy seals ones fate, but is NOT the source of the malady. “Your sins have separated you from your God.”

If a man is dying of cancer and the doctor comes in and offers such a one a cure, and the man refuses the treatment and dies, tell me Amy, did the man died from the cancer or from the rejection of the cure?

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Refusing the remedy seals ones fate, but is NOT the source of the malady. “Your sins have separated you from your God.”

If a man is dying of cancer and the doctor comes in and offers such a one a cure, and the man refuses the treatment and dies, tell me Amy, did the man died from the cancer or from the rejection of the cure?

He died from cancer. He could have lived if he'd taken the cure.

If one rejects Christ, it is his sins that will send him to hell.

I think we are in agreement, aren't we?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: He died from cancer. He could have lived if he'd taken the cure.

If one rejects Christ, it is his sins that will send him to hell.

I think we are in agreement, aren't we?

HP: That is scary. Two points of agreement in one night. :thumbs: We had better quit for now lest we run the risk of killing the discussion. :laugh:

 

[Darren]

Darren...since you don't believe God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-present....why would capitalizing His name be a big deal to you? I'm just saying....

WARNING! WARNING!

Irrelivent character attack emminent. I know I should just ignore this like the pathetic excuse for an arguement it is, but hey, I'm curious, how far will he take it?

Amy: I don't think I believe in original sin.

Oh I believe in the original sin... of Satan... oh... not suppose to point that out am I? Yes indeed, there was sin before Adam.

The curse of sin is the curse of eternal death, damnation away from God, forever condemned to hell. The sin nature is the ability to and the habit of sinning which develops an irrisitable pattern of behavior over the course of one's life. When asked, a man who seemed like the most innocent of children growing up, why he seems so vile now, he will normally say "I just couldn't help myself". But so an overweight person will say about eating too much.

 

[Amy.G]

Oh I believe in the original sin... of Satan... oh... not suppose to point that out am I? Yes indeed, there was sin before Adam.

When I referred to "origian sin", I was referring the doctrine of orginal sin, not that there was a first sin.

From Wikipedia
Original sin, according to Augustine, consists of the guilt of Adam which all human beings inherit. As sinners, human beings are utterly depraved in nature, lack the freedom to do good, and cannot respond to the will of God without divine grace. Grace is irresistible, results in conversion, and leads to perseverance.[5]


I am referring to the doctine that all are born already condemned because of Adam's sin. They are sinners at birth.

In contrast to being innocent until one sins.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


The question is, do we sin because we're sinners? Or are we sinners because we sin?


I think we are born with a nature that is inclined to sin, but until we willfully disobey God, sin is not imputed to us. Thus, I believe in the sin nature, but not the doctrine of original sin.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

When I referred to "origian sin", I was referring the doctrine of orginal sin, not that there was a first sin...I think we are born with a nature that is inclined to sin, but until we willfully disobey God, sin is not imputed to us. Thus, I believe in the sin nature, but not the doctrine of original sin.

Sounds good, eventhough I tend to look at sin as the Church does, and that's as a disease, but lets press the issue a little farther...As a former Baptist I was taught that man was totally depraved...what's your thoughts...

hint: Total Depravity derives straight from Augustinian doctrine of original sin, which you clearly deny...be careful...:smilewinkgrin:

InXC
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[DHK]

Sounds good, eventhough I tend to look at sin as the Church does, and that's as a disease, but lets press the issue a little farther...As a former Baptist I was taught that man was totally depraved...what's your thoughts...

hint: Total Depravity derives straight from Augustinian doctrine of original sin, which you clearly deny...be careful...:smilewinkgrin:

InXC
-

And I suppose the trinity comes straight from the Catholic Church?
Do you accept that as well?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

And I suppose the trinity comes straight from the Catholic Church?
Do you accept that as well?

Come on DHK...the Trinity was settled long before there was a "Roman Catholic Church" as we know it today...please...

Or unless you mean "Catholic Church" as the Early Apostolic Church pre 1054...then yes...

InXC
-

 

[Amy.G]

Sounds good, eventhough I tend to look at sin as the Church does, and that's as a disease, but lets press the issue a little farther...As a former Baptist I was taught that man was totally depraved...what's your thoughts...

hint: Total Depravity derives straight from Augustinian doctrine of original sin, which you clearly deny...be careful...:smilewinkgrin:

InXC
-

I had never heard of total depravity until I came to the BB. I was not raised in a Christian home. I was saved at 22, started going to a pentacostal church, had a bad experience, went to a Baptist church for a few months, stopped going and didn't go back to church for 20 years (except to visit). That was 6 years ago. I have emersed myself in the scriptures ever since then. So, I can't speak much about church history, because I just don't know much about it. I have been to many different denoms over the years and studied their doctrines via internet and the one that most closely resembles my personal beliefs is the Baptist denomination. That's why I'm a Baptist.

Just a little boring personal history.

 

[DHK]

Sounds good, eventhough I tend to look at sin as the Church does, and that's as a disease, but lets press the issue a little farther...As a former Baptist I was taught that man was totally depraved...what's your thoughts...

hint: Total Depravity derives straight from Augustinian doctrine of original sin, which you clearly deny...be careful...:smilewinkgrin:

InXC
-

I won't speak for Amy.
I am not a Calvinist. (That is something that HP likes to label me with).
I believe that Calvinism has its roots in Augustinianism. (I am sure to make enemies with that statement).
Nevertheless I would rather dispense with the history, and stick to Biblical doctrine. If you want to use the terminology coined by specific men, i.e., trinity, that doesn't mean that that specific man or organization came up with the doctrine. The doctrine may have been there all along. The doctrine of the "sin nature" of mankind is clearly taught in the Bible. The doctrine of the total depravity of man, such as Calvin taught it, is not. At least that is what I believe. Many on the board will disagree with me. I don't believe in "Total Depravity" per se. But I do believe that every man has a sin nature.

 

[Amy.G]

I won't speak for Amy.
I am not a Calvinist. (That is something that HP likes to label me with).
I believe that Calvinism has its roots in Augustinianism. (I am sure to make enemies with that statement).
Nevertheless I would rather dispense with the history, and stick to Biblical doctrine. If you want to use the terminology coined by specific men, i.e., trinity, that doesn't mean that that specific man or organization came up with the doctrine. The doctrine may have been there all along. The doctrine of the "sin nature" of mankind is clearly taught in the Bible. The doctrine of the total depravity of man, such as Calvin taught it, is not. At least that is what I believe. Many on the board will disagree with me. I don't believe in "Total Depravity" per se. But I do believe that every man has a sin nature.

You spoke for me. :thumbs: (I think)

Do you believe the doctrine of original sin, in that all are born condemned until they accept Christ as savior? Or is that the same thing as total depravity?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I had never heard of total depravity until I came to the BB. I was not raised in a Christian home. I was saved at 22, started going to a pentacostal church, had a bad experience, went to a Baptist church for a few months, stopped going and didn't go back to church for 20 years (except to visit). That was 6 years ago. I have emersed myself in the scriptures ever since then. So, I can't speak much about church history, because I just don't know much about it. I have been to many different denoms over the years and studied their doctrines via internet and the one that most closely resembles my personal beliefs is the Baptist denomination. That's why I'm a Baptist.

Just a little boring personal history.

Defiantly not boring Amy (got it right this time), we’re all on a spiritual journey aiming for the same prize and all have a story to tell.

If you’ve never heard of Total Depravity, I won’t push the issue…the main thing is that God has you where He wants you, as long as you’re being fed and growing in Christ (what we Orthodox refer to as theosis), then I’m happy for you.

As an Orthodox Catechumen, our first class was that the Orthodox Church doesn’t have God in their pocket and I’m not out to convert anyone, only to represent what the Orthodox Church teaches as accurately as possible and how different Orthodoxy and Catholicism is and how similar Catholicism and Protestantism are in regard to sin nature as evident in Augustine writings and how the Reformers expanded upon his theology.

InXC
-

 

[DHK]

You spoke for me. :thumbs: (I think)

Do you believe the doctrine of original sin, in that all are born condemned until they accept Christ as savior? Or is that the same thing as total depravity?

I don't like using the term "original sin" because it is a Catholic term, and the Catholics mean something entirely different than we believe. Let's look at what the Catholic Catechism teaches:

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul".291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

406 The Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529)296 and at the Council of Trent (1546).297

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#406

Their "invention" of the doctrine of original sin, was in part, due to the Protestant Reformation, and their opposition of it. That alone speaks volumes.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I don't like using the term "original sin" because it is a Catholic term, and the Catholics mean something entirely different than we believe. Let's look at what the Catholic Catechism teaches:

HP: Now answer Amy’s question. Tell us what you believe.

 

[DHK]

HP: Now answer Amy’s question. Tell us what you believe.

This thread is 14 pages now, and you still don't know what I believe. Amazing! How often do I have to repeat myself.