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What is sin nature?
- Thread starter Darren
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: When this baby you speak of is able to discern good from evil, is that the age of accountability you speak of or does it come later?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I agree that at no time was Jesus not God in some sense, yet it would appear to me that God willingly divested of Himself certain characteristics when He became flesh and dwelt among us. What was Jesus speaking of in this verse? Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Is it possible for an infant to know “evil?” Does not ‘knowing evil’ indicate that the individual understands the intrinsic nature of that which is denoted as ‘evil,’ concepts far removed from infants?
Certainly infants of very small children understand concepts of acceptable or unacceptable behavior, but by ‘what means’ is the question? I suggest that they, at this early age, know about as much of good and evil as my pet does. My pet knows acceptable behavior, NOT by good or evil, but by punishments or rewards. Concepts of ‘evil’ or ‘holy’ are not gained until much later on in their childhood when they come to understand the intrinsic nature of certain commands APART FROM rewards of punishments. It is absurd to consider an infant or even a small child as a moral being capable of discerning evil.
Brother Bob
New Member
Amy.G said:
Yes, that is it. The Law for sure was around when Paul was a child and before, but did not enter him until a certain time in his life. Then sin revived and he died in trespasses in sin and was in need of a Saviour.
Sorry I was late getting back to you, I had to go take care of a funeral wake service.
BBob,
A baby can discern between good and evil at a very early age.Heavenly Pilgrim said:
They can deceive their parents in letting them know when they are hungary when they are not.
But that doesn't mean that they can comprehend the gospel--that Christ died and paid the penalty for their sins. When they can understand their need for Christ and the gospel message, then they have reached the age of accountability. And that age is different for every individual. No two people are the same.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Where did you come up with this novel idea concerning the age of accountability, in that it involves ‘understanding their need for Christ and the gospel message?’ I say that these two issue have absolutely nothing to do with the age of accountability. The age of accountability has to do with understanding the intrinsic value or worth of a moral command apart from punishment or rewards. One can reach that age in the deepest regions of heathendom, without ever hearing or understanding anything concerning the salvation message or their need for a Savior they have again never even dreamed about. The age of accountability has to do with reaching the threshold of moral agency, the point where one becomes responsible morally before God, does it not?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Bump. Still waiting on a reply from DHK
It is not novel at all.Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Jesus himself taught it.
He said:
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
You must believe on the Son, and then you will have everlasting life.
You must grow to the age where you will have the maturity, the intelligence to be able to understand and believe the gospel, that you may have eternal life.
Jesus said that you must belief. That is the requirement that He made.
Since an infant is incapable of believing then he is not held accountable for the unbelief wherein Jesus says: "He that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
I did not come up with this. It is not my idea. It is not novel with me. This is what Christ himself taught.
Do you understand the word "believe"?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Where did you come up with this novel idea concerning the age of accountability, in that it involves ‘understanding their need for Christ and the gospel message?’ I say that these two issue have absolutely nothing to do with the age of accountability. The age of accountability has to do with understanding the intrinsic value or worth of a moral command apart from punishment or rewards. One can reach that age in the deepest regions of heathendom, without ever hearing or understanding anything concerning the salvation message or their need for a Savior they have again never even dreamed about. The age of accountability has to do with reaching the threshold of moral agency, the point where one becomes responsible morally before God, does it not?
HP: Pardon me DHK, but this verse teaches no such thing as you insinuate. Where in this passage does it teach that the age of accountability has anything to do whatsoever with hearing, understanding, and be able to respond to the gospel message. Your remarks go far beyond making the verse walk on four legs to support a notion. You might as well have used the verse “Jesus wept” to prove your point.
HP: You try to have it both ways. First you tell us that even infants know evil from good and that the grace of God must cover for their sin, (yet another unfounded philosophical position) now you tell us that the infant is incapable of believing. You tell us that the only damning sin is unbelief, and due to the fact that you now say the infant is incapable of belief, how can any sin be attached to them? What do they need the grace of God for, failure to overcome necessitated fate, a feat not even God can accomplish?? If the only damning sin is unbelief, and infants are incapable of belief, they have done nothing to be damned for and as such need no grace to cover for any damning sin.
Show us the Scripture that states or implies that infants need the grace of God to avoid the doom of a sinner. If they are sinners, they are doomed. If they are not doomed it is due to the fact that they are not sinners. If you try and tell us that infants are indeed sinners from birth as original sin implies, then according to the verse in question they have not believed and as such of necessity are doomed. This verse in no way makes any exception for infants. That is shear conjecture on your part to assume what the Scripture does not state or imply. Again either infants are sinners and as such according to this verse doomed, for they have not believed, or they are not sinners, and as such this verse simply does not apply to them.
HP: Christ taught no such thing as you imply. Christ taught the innocence of infants and small children, and that of such is the Kingdom of God. Christ taught that we must become as little children to inherit the Kingdom of God. Scripture no where teaches that we must become as sinful and wicked as they in order to inherit eternal life, as would properly be deduced if in fact children are indeed sinful from birth.
HP: Pardon me DHK, but this verse teaches no such thing as you insinuate. Where in this passage does it teach that the age of accountability has anything to do whatsoever with hearing, understanding, and be able to respond to the gospel message. Your remarks go far beyond making the verse walk on four legs to support a notion. You might as well have used the verse “Jesus wept” to prove your point.
HP: You try to have it both ways. First you tell us that even infants know evil from good and that the grace of God must cover for their sin, (yet another unfounded philosophical position) now you tell us that the infant is incapable of believing. You tell us that the only damning sin is unbelief, and due to the fact that you now say the infant is incapable of belief, how can any sin be attached to them? What do they need the grace of God for, failure to overcome necessitated fate, a feat not even God can accomplish?? If the only damning sin is unbelief, and infants are incapable of belief, they have done nothing to be damned for and as such need no grace to cover for any damning sin.
Show us the Scripture that states or implies that infants need the grace of God to avoid the doom of a sinner. If they are sinners, they are doomed. If they are not doomed it is due to the fact that they are not sinners. If you try and tell us that infants are indeed sinners from birth as original sin implies, then according to the verse in question they have not believed and as such of necessity are doomed. This verse in no way makes any exception for infants. That is shear conjecture on your part to assume what the Scripture does not state or imply. Again either infants are sinners and as such according to this verse doomed, for they have not believed, or they are not sinners, and as such this verse simply does not apply to them.
HP: Christ taught no such thing as you imply. Christ taught the innocence of infants and small children, and that of such is the Kingdom of God. Christ taught that we must become as little children to inherit the Kingdom of God. Scripture no where teaches that we must become as sinful and wicked as they in order to inherit eternal life, as would properly be deduced if in fact children are indeed sinful from birth.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Sometimes we can better understand what something is by noting what it cannot be. Belief is not simply a mental assent, or mere head knowledge, for the devils believe and tremble yet I do not believe one would be wise to count them into the kingdom. Belief, as seen in a saving sense, has to incorporate a mental assent but cannot stop there. Belief that saves must incorporate a change of heart and attitude towards sin. It must incorporate feelings of remorse for sin, understanding that one could have done other, and should have done other, than what one did under the very same set of circumstances. Belief, in a saving sense, involves the continued committal of the will in active obedience. One might say of belief as James did of faith. ‘One may say they have belief apart from their works, but I will show you my belief by my works, for belief without works is dead being alone.’ (I am not directing this towards you personally, but rather to illustrate what faith is and is not, what belief saves and what belief will not save.)
Belief, in any saving sense, must incorporate a continuing in the formation of intents consistent with obedience, for faith without works is dead being alone. Belief, in the mere sense of a mental assent, will not save any more than mere faith without the formation of intents consistent with love towards God and our fellowman will save. There is dead faith and dead belief. There is also saving faith and saving belief, both are established and validated as a sure hope for ones eternal salvation as they produce works consistent with their stated end, i.e. salvation. Neither will save being alone.
Both faith and belief take root in our lives by a simple act of the will, but must be maintained by obedience to see ones eternal salvation brought to full and realized fruition eternally. Until we stand before the Lord in final judgment, our sate is best represented as a state of probationary hope. Now we have the earnest of that hope. Subsequent to being found with an Advocate at the judgment, Jesus Christ the Righteous, our hope and earnest of eternal life will be turned to eternal and unchanging sight. He that continues to the end, the same shall be saved.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Why is that so horrible?? Sinners need salvation, not infants or those that have not reached the age of accountability. I believe as you do that infants and those that have never reached the age of accountability will indeed be in heaven or with God in some sense, but Scripture is mute as far as I read it just exactly how God is going to treat them or what place they will play in eternity. Loving, just and fair there is no doubt.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Who said you were evil? We do not believe the same thing. We agree that innocents will not go to hell, but you propose that they need to be saved, or that salvation makes their final end possible, and I believe that they need no salvation for they are not even moral agents and as such have no sin to be saved from. Neither are they righteous by the way. Scripture does not tell us how God is going to treat them or the place in eternal destiny they will have or play. My hope is that they will indeed be in heaven, but again in what state we are simply not told.
No that's what it is to you DHK. I find that a lot of what you say applies directly to you.
What's this...:
Matthew 9:1-8
1Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven." 3At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!"
4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7And the man got up and went home. 8When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.
Mark2:1-12
1A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2So many gathered that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3Some men came, bringing to him a paralytic, carried by four of them. 4Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus and, after digging through it, lowered the mat the paralyzed man was lying on. 5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." 6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7"Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
8Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? 9Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? 10But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins . . . ." He said to the paralytic, 11"I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." 12He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, "We have never seen anything like this!"
Luke 5:17-26
17One day as he was teaching, Pharisees and teachers of the law, who had come from every village of Galilee and from Judea and Jerusalem, were sitting there. And the power of the Lord was present for him to heal the sick. 18Some men came carrying a paralytic on a mat and tried to take him into the house to lay him before Jesus. 19When they could not find a way to do this because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and lowered him on his mat through the tiles into the middle of the crowd, right in front of Jesus.
20When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."
21The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, "Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
22Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? 23Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 24But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." He said to the paralyzed man, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." 25Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went home praising God. 26Everyone was amazed and gave praise to God. They were filled with awe and said, "We have seen remarkable things today."
Luke 7: 36-50
36Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. 37When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, 38and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them. 39When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner."
40Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."
"Tell me, teacher," he said.
41"Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[d] and the other fifty. 42Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"
43Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled."
"You have judged correctly," Jesus said.
44Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
48Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
49The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"
50Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Luke 23: 39-43
39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Anyone care to take a guess about what those passages imply about the forgiveness of sins?
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