What is Sin?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Sure I have sinned. All have sinned. What if I told you that I walked holy before Him today with the help He has proffered? Would you seek such a walk for yourself or simply start casting stones? God keeps close tabs on me and that should suffice on this forum.

Wisdom refrains me from arguing about our personal testimonies or even sharing them on this forum except in measure. In retrospect, you might have been better off keeping your personal remarks as to sinning every day in thought word and deed to yourself on this forum. As I told you, that certainly is not my testimony. I wish it was not yours.

 

[Pastor David]

Sure I have sinned. All have sinned. What if I told you that I walked holy before Him today with the help He has proffered? Would you seek such a walk for yourself or simply start casting stones? God keeps close tabs on me and that should suffice on this forum.

Wisdom refrains me from arguing about our personal testimonies or even sharing them on this forum except in measure. In retrospect, you might have been better off keeping your personal remarks as to sinning every day in thought word and deed to yourself on this forum. As I told you, that certainly is not my testimony. I wish it was not yours.

So, its ok for you to admit you sin, but its not ok for me to admit I sin? I'm simply being open and honest. I dont mind sharing personal antedotes if they serve a purpose. My faith is not in my ability to walk without sin. Its in a Savior who forgives me when I do.

HP, do you believe Christians can obtain to a sinlessness on this side of glory?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor David? HP, do you believe Christians can obtain to a sinlessness on this side of glory?

HP: Why ask me? What do Scripture say? Are we able to be found blameless at His coming? Research the words 'in this present world'. You might even try these key words and phrases. Free from sin, without rebuke, without offense, void of offence, Holy, pure, righteous, Unreprovable, unrebukable, in nothing shall I be ashamed, without fault, without blame, without spot, dead to sins, undefiled. If you get through all these, surely we could find other passages to research as well. :thumbsup:

One verse you need to remember, II Tim 2:15 That means you and I, not our family, our church, our Bible study , or anyone else. "Yourself" is the the keyword. God is not in the business of disappointing His children. His promises of help are sure.

 

[Pastor David]

HP: Why ask me? What do Scripture say? Are we able to be found blameless at His coming? Research the words 'in this present world'. You might even try these key words and phrases. Free from sin, without rebuke, without offense, void of offence, Holy, pure, righteous, Unreprovable, unrebukable, in nothing shall I be ashamed, without fault, without blame, without spot, dead to sins, undefiled. If you get through all these, surely we could find other passages to research as well. :thumbsup:

So, the answer's 'yes'?

 

[glfredrick]

HP: Why ask me? What do Scripture say? Are we able to be found blameless at His coming? Research the words 'in this present world'. You might even try these key words and phrases. Free from sin, without rebuke, without offense, void of offence, Holy, pure, righteous, Unreprovable, unrebukable, in nothing shall I be ashamed, without fault, without blame, without spot, dead to sins, undefiled. If you get through all these, surely we could find other passages to research as well. :thumbsup:

One verse you need to remember, II Tim 2:15 That means you and I, not our family, our church, our Bible study , or anyone else. "Yourself" is the the keyword. God is not in the business of disappointing His children. His promises of help are sure.

I believe you are leaning toward the classic Wesleyan position of a "second blessing of the Spirit" that works to cleanse sinful humans of the remaining vestiges of sin. That is not a doctrine that works scripturally, however, and it is rather based on the experiential issues that some in that movement and others have seen when "thinking" that they were already Christians by their religious efforts actually at some point became justified into the faith and regenerated.

Additionally, you are conflating the imputation of Christ's righteousness with our own sinful state. Yes, we are indeed not under condemnation because of Christ, but that is not our own effort -- it is purely God's grace -- and it says NOTHING of our ability or desire or actions regarding actual sin. It is plainly evident that all believers in Christ DO sin, and in all the ways listed above in this thread. Praise God, those sins are atoned for, propitiated, and we have the imputed righteousness of the very Son of God for God to use to reconcile us with His Law concerning the sure and certain death and everlasting destruction in hell of sinners.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Whitfield: "I can say that I cannot pray but I sin — I cannot preach to you or any others but I sin — I can do nothing without sin; and, as one expresseth it, my repentance wants to be repented of, and my tears to be washed in the precious blood of my dear Redeemer. Our best duties are as so many splendid sins."

HP: Is there any wonder why so many can not find it within themselves to give a clear definition of sin? According to Whitfield he can do nothing, man can do nothing without sin. He cannot pray without sin. He cannot preach without sin. He can even seemingly shed tears or repent without sin. Nothing he can do is without sin.

Does this not logically conclude that when God calls upon all men to repent and calls on men to pray and God calls on man to diligently seek him, that according to Whitfield's comment would all be the same as God calling men to sin. Not only that but it makes things like repentance sin, which God himself does at least according to the Calvinist or those leaning hard towards Calvinism.

How can we define sin, in any scriptural or reasonable terms, when such teaching has been so embedded in the church? Whitfield has been put out as probably one of the most famous preachers of all times. Oh yes, by all means he would be classified as Orthodox. Orthodoxy!

So let this truth be clearly understood. Sin has been clouded in the minds of so many via 'orthodoxy,' that the truth has clearly been obscured as to what sin entails. It is past time we start thinking right about religion again.

Let me ask the reader again. How do you define sin? How do you avoid the pitfalls clearly taught by great leaders like Whitefield? Does it in any way elevate the grace of God with such unreasonable, unscriptural, ill logical definitions of sin, that have been used in the pulpits over the years by leaders of orthodoxy like Whitefield?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Additionally, you are conflating the imputation of Christ's righteousness with our own sinful state. Yes, we are indeed not under condemnation because of Christ, but that is not our own effort -- it is purely God's grace -- and it says NOTHING of our ability or desire or actions regarding actual sin.

I believe that Paul teaches us that in our "walk" we can indeed live lives that can be described as 'holy":

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).

If we do sin we can confess that sin and we are cleansed from all unrighteousness and therefore are in a state which can be described as holy.

Then as long as we walk according to the Spirit we will not sin and we will remain holy. We should be able to do this for long periods of time. After all, this is a part of out "reasonable service," just as it was for the believing Israelites:

"The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life" (Lk.1:72-75).

If we keep our mind on the things of God and not own our own selves then we will indeed be able to serve Him in holiness all the days of our life:

"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God" (Col.3:1-3).

 

[glfredrick]

I believe that Paul teaches us that in our "walk" we can indeed live lives that can be described as 'holy":

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).

If we do sin we can confess that sin and we are cleansed from all unrighteousness and therefore are in a state which can be described as holy.

Then as long as we walk according to the Spirit we will not sin and we will remain holy. We should be able to do this for long periods of time. After all, this is a part of out "reasonable service," just as it was for the believing Israelites:

"The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life" (Lk.1:72-75).

If we keep our mind on the things of God and not own our own selves then we will indeed be able to serve Him in holiness all the days of our life:

"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God" (Col.3:1-3).

"Holy" does not equal "without sin". It means "set apart" and has the root stem of "sanctified" not "sinless."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"Holy" does not equal "without sin". It means "set apart" and has the root stem of "sanctified" not "sinless."

That is oner of the meanings but the setting apart is not done by the Christian but by the Holy Spirit:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (1 Pet.1:2).

This verse is speaking about what a Christian is to do:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).

The meaning of the Greek word translated "holy" in this verse is "in a moral sense, pure, sinless, upright" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Excellent posts Jerry. God help me to keep my heart, mind, and faith stayed on Him!

 

[Moriah]

HP: Is there any wonder why so many can not find it within themselves to give a clear definition of sin? According to Whitfield he can do nothing, man can do nothing without sin. He cannot pray without sin. He cannot preach without sin. He can even seemingly shed tears or repent without sin. Nothing he can do is without sin.

Does this not logically conclude that when God calls upon all men to repent and calls on men to pray and God calls on man to diligently seek him, that according to Whitfield's comment would all be the same as God calling men to sin. Not only that but it makes things like repentance sin, which God himself does at least according to the Calvinist or those leaning hard towards Calvinism.

How can we define sin, in any scriptural or reasonable terms, when such teaching has been so embedded in the church? Whitfield has been put out as probably one of the most famous preachers of all times. Oh yes, by all means he would be classified as Orthodox. Orthodoxy!

So let this truth be clearly understood. Sin has been clouded in the minds of so many via 'orthodoxy,' that the truth has clearly been obscured as to what sin entails. It is past time we start thinking right about religion again.

Let me ask the reader again. How do you define sin? How do you avoid the pitfalls clearly taught by great leaders like Whitefield? Does it in any way elevate the grace of God with such unreasonable, unscriptural, ill logical definitions of sin, that have been used in the pulpits over the years by leaders of orthodoxy like Whitefield?

This is very insightful, excellent.

 

[Moriah]

I believe that Paul teaches us that in our "walk" we can indeed live lives that can be described as 'holy":

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).

If we do sin we can confess that sin and we are cleansed from all unrighteousness and therefore are in a state which can be described as holy.

Then as long as we walk according to the Spirit we will not sin and we will remain holy. We should be able to do this for long periods of time. After all, this is a part of out "reasonable service," just as it was for the believing Israelites:

"The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life" (Lk.1:72-75).

If we keep our mind on the things of God and not own our own selves then we will indeed be able to serve Him in holiness all the days of our life:

"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God" (Col.3:1-3).

More insightful reading, that I just enjoying reading. Just love to hear other people speaking truth.

 

[convicted1]

The only righteousness we have is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. When He saves us, we are cleansed by His blood, and God see us through His Son's blood. In and of ourselves, we have no righteousness.


No matter how hard we try, we are going to come up short. But through the shed blood, God sees us as His own, and when we seek for His forgiveness, He will abundantly pardon us every time.

 

[glfredrick]

That is oner of the meanings but the setting apart is not done by the Christian but by the Holy Spirit:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (1 Pet.1:2).

This verse is speaking about what a Christian is to do:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).

The meaning of the Greek word translated "holy" in this verse is "in a moral sense, pure, sinless, upright" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Thanks for admitting that WE cannot do that unless God does it through us... :thumbs:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Thanks for admitting that WE cannot do that unless God does it through us...

I have never taught otherwise.

"Holy" does not equal "without sin". It means "set apart" and has the root stem of "sanctified" not "sinless."

Do you see now that you are wrong about that?

This verse is speaking about what a Christian is to do:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).

The meaning of the Greek word translated "holy" in this verse is "in a moral sense, pure, sinless, upright" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

 

[glfredrick]

I have never taught otherwise.

Do you see now that you are wrong about that?

This verse is speaking about what a Christian is to do:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).

The meaning of the Greek word translated "holy" in this verse is "in a moral sense, pure, sinless, upright" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

I am not wrong about "holy." And, a blanket lexcon like Thayers, though helpful, does not speak at all to how holy is used in context.

Let's face it. There are a number of people debating in this thread who have NO CONCEPT of eternal separation from God as their primary sin, and therefore, they somehow think that we can be one with God through some effort, belief, action, etc. Unless that eternal separation is first fixed none of the rest matters, whether done in utter sin, in godliness, or otherwise. THAT is the message of the Bible and THAT is why the "gospel" is called "good news," i.e., that GOD, THROUGH CHRIST came to impute to us His perfect righteousness so as to adopt us back into His family and kingdom, eliminating our eternal separation so that we can become sanctified (holy -- set apart) and eventually fully conformed to the image of Christ in our final glorification.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I am not wrong about "holy."

So what you said here is not wrong?:

"Holy" does not equal "without sin".

Even though I quoted a recognized Greek expert who says that it can indeed mean "sinless" you refuse to admit that you are wrong.

What are your credentials in the Greek language?

And, a blanket lexcon like Thayers, though helpful, does not speak at all to how holy is used in context.

You are the one who made a blanket statement about the meaning of the Greek word translated "holy" when you said:

"Holy" does not equal "without sin".

When you are shown that you were in error you refuse to recognize that you made a mistake.

 

[glfredrick]

So what you said here is not wrong?:

Even though I quoted a recognized Greek expert who says that it can indeed mean "sinless" you refuse to admit that you are wrong.

What are your credentials in the Greek language?

You are the one who made a blanket statement about the meaning of the Greek word translated "holy" when you said:

When you are shown that you were in error you refuse to recognize that you made a mistake.

I have multiple years of Greek study under some of the men who penned the current grammars used for classrooms everywhere. Those who read my posts know this to be true, including several of our resident Greek experts like John of Japan.

Now, your turn to share...

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have multiple years of Greek study under some of the men who penned the current grammars used for classrooms everywhere. Those who read my posts know this to be true, including several of our resident Greek experts like John of Japan.

Now, your turn to share...

You need to ask for your money back because you lack a basic understanding of the meaning of the Greek word translated "holy."

You said:

"Holy" does not equal "without sin".

Joseph Henry Thayer, a RECOGNIZED Greek expert, says that one of the meanings of the Greek word translated "holy" is "in a moral sense, pure, sinless, upright" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The things that money and education can't buy........