What is Sin?

[The Biblicist]

Now to return to the original question, "what is sin"? Sin in its essence is rebellion against all authority but self and thus rebellion ultimately against God from which all legitimate authority is derived from (Rom. 13:1-2).

Sin is self-expression for any other motive than for the glory of God (Rom. 3:23).

The root of sin within creatures is refusal to thank and/or glorify God in all that they are, think, say or do!

Infants exhibt sin in its very raw essence more than any other stage of human development. Infants are completely self-absorbed and demand preeminence from all around them and IF they came with an adult body they would destroy anyone they were displeased and angry with.

Evil flows naturally from the heart of the infant and without discipline to restrain that flow of evil they would destroy anyone and anything that stands in their way of self-pleasing.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jerry: The verse I quoted says that He was made like us in every way. Obviously you do not believe that.

HP: They cannot believe that Jerry. Not because there are not Scriptures proving them wrong, but rather because it does not jive their cardinal dogma of original sin.

I find it very relieving to be free of that Augustinian heathen notion. It frees my mind to consider other means whereby the Scripture and reason can be in harmony.

Certainly Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. No question about that. We know that Joseph did not know Mary until after Jesus was born. We can know that by Scripture, but what does not fit with Scripture is that in reality Jesus had an earthly tie to the lineage of David, through Joseph as Scripture clearly affirms he did. He took upon Himself "the SEED of Abraham." Now there is a plain truth to consider.

I have no problem in my mind reconciling theses facts. I believe that God either took of the seed of Joseph, or created an identical human seed, in keeping with being of the SEED of Abraham, and implanted that physical seed via the Holy Spirit without the aide of man? If He created the Universe without the aide of man, a simple little human seed seems to me small potatoes. :thumbs:

Why not? Would that not be in perfect harmony with the Scriptures, both of having the actual seed of Abraham, being a literal descendant of King David by virtue of his physical connection, THROUGH JOSEPH as the Scripture clearly attests to, and still yet being born of a virgin conceived by the Holy Spirit.

Legion is the complete illogical unscriptural error the false notion of Augustinian original sin imbibes.

 

[glfredrick]

I might say it more simply...

Our "sin" is our eternal separation from God that only God can cure via the atonement.

Our "sins" are a result of wrong actions, thoughts, beliefs, and words, whether intentional or not, whether provoked or not, because we are born into "sin".

While God can cure our "sin" and can implant within us the Holy Spirit who strives with our spirit to curb our sin nature, we can and do continue in "sins"
which are completely forgiven, but which do exist.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: glfredrick, let me be frank. If one believes for a minute that the sins one commits on a daily basis, not repented of, and not forsaken, are already forgiven by virtue of their standing with God, such a one is under clear deception. Such deception is no different that the deception of the Jews, that believed by virtue of their lineage they were the eternal children of God.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

The believer is under the same condition of repentance for the forgiveness of current sin as the unbeliever is of his sins.

Jn 1:9 IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: glfredrick, let me be frank. If one believes for a minute that the sins one commits on a daily basis, not repented of, and not forsaken, are already forgiven by virtue of their standing with God, such a one is under clear deception. Such deception is no different that the deception of the Jews, that believed by virtue of their lineage they were the eternal children of God.

The only one here that is deceived is you. Justification remits all sins, present, past and future. Sanctification deals with our present EXPERIENCE of salvation. That EXPERIENCE does not lose or gain entrance into heaven but determines are present growth in grace (1 Cor. 3:11-15).

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

This is referring to sins between Genesis and the cross for those who by faith trusted in the coming Christ and were justified as was Abraham (Acts 10:43; Rom. 4:1-25).

The believer is under the same condition of repentance for the forgiveness of current sin as the unbeliever is of his sins.

Not so! The consequences of failure to confess is CHASTISEMENT for the believer but the unbeleiver is still under the WRATH of God (Heb. 12:1-10).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

HP: They cannot believe that Jerry. Not because there are not Scriptures proving them wrong, but rather because it does not jive their cardinal dogma of original sin.

I find it very relieving to be free of that Augustinian heathen notion. It frees my mind to consider other means whereby the Scripture and reason can be in harmony.

Certainly Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. No question about that. We know that Joseph did not know Mary until after Jesus was born. We can know that by Scripture, but what does not fit with Scripture is that in reality Jesus had an earthly tie to the lineage of David, through Joseph as Scripture clearly affirms he did. He took upon Himself "the SEED of Abraham." Now there is a plain truth to consider.

You are absolutely correct, Heavenly Pilgrim. Let us look again at the verse in question:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

The Greek word translated "to be made like" means "to make like; to become like one...took the likeness of one" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

This is not speaking of "how" one is made. So this has nothing to do with the virgin birth. But those in the "Original Sin" camp must give some reason, no matter how irrational, as an excuse for not believing what is so plain in the Scriptures.

The same people must twist the Scriptures to make it fit their mistaken views. They say that an infant is born dead spiritually as a result of Adam's sin despite the fact that a person becomes dead spiritually as a result of his own sin:
　
"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1766898#post1766898
HP: If sin is rooted in pride, then all sin starts with pride and pride is the root motive of sin.

Then you say Sin is the root motive, not pride.

Is pride or sin the root motive? If you say pride, is all pride sin? For instance, it might be said, one is proud to be an American. Is that sin?

Could you be reasoning in a circle in the matter of sin? Sin cannot start with pride if sin is the root motive and not pride. Can you clear this confusion up for us?

Biblicist: Let me make this as clear and as simply as I possibly can. It is the WRONG MOTIVE that is the sin.

HP: Motive is simply another word for intent as I see it. Motive, or intent, is the reason behind ones CHOICES, not simply behind ones choices as a necessitated force or coercion as you would have us believe. The way I understand you is that motive is simply at one with ones self, driven and forced compulsion 'dictated' (using your own word) by ones 'self.'

Biblicist: The right motive is "for the glory of God." Hence, the WRONG MOTIVE would be anything other than the right motive.

HP: What you would have us believe is that we are created devoid of contrary choice period. Motive to you is like the motivation of a foul odor floating up freely from a dead carcass. Motive to you has absolutely nothing to do with any real choices, and is driven or "dictated" by 'self.' It is THE ONLY manner according to you one can act. It is not chosen in the least. It has nothing at all to do with morality. It has nothing to do with wrong, for all is DICTATED, forced or coerced in like manner of that foul odor I referred to above. You might as well tell us that one chose to be born with red hair instead of brown hair, and in doing so made the 'wrong' choice. Unfair illustration? No way. You tell us that man is simply the product of dictated evil via the self he was born with antecedent to any possible choice, and in doing so he made the wrong decision, again all antecedent to even the possibility of anything remotely associated with choice. Your 'motive' is no motive at all, unless of course that foul odor rising freely from that dead corpse has motives.

 

[The Biblicist]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1766898#post1766898
HP: Motive is simply another word for intent as I see it. Motive, or intent, is the reason behind ones CHOICES, not simply behind ones choices as a necessitated force or coercion as you would have us believe. The way I understand you is that motive is simply at one with ones self, driven and forced compulsion 'dictated' (using your own word) by ones 'self.'



HP: What you would have us believe is that we are created devoid of contrary choice period. Motive to you is like the motivation of a foul odor floating up freely from a dead carcass. Motive to you has absolutely nothing to do with any real choices, and is driven or "dictated" by 'self.' It is THE ONLY manner according to you one can act. It is not chosen in the least. It has nothing at all to do with morality. It has nothing to do with wrong, for all is DICTATED, forced or coerced in like manner of that foul odor I referred to above. You might as well tell us that one chose to be born with red hair instead of brown hair, and in doing so made the 'wrong' choice. Unfair illustration? No way. You tell us that man is simply the product of dictated evil via the self he was born with antecedent to any possible choice, and in doing so he made the wrong decision, again all antecedent to even the possibility of anything remotely associated with choice. Your 'motive' is no motive at all, unless of course that foul odor rising freely from that dead corpse has motives.

Why don't you first acknowledge the definition I give and then state it without perverting it into another definition altogether????

Yes, motive and intent are one and the same. The root of sin in man is an unlawful motive which is causative for all choices.

It is is very simple. Either all that you choose to say and do is for the glory of God or it is not. Only a regenerate person is capable of doing anything for the glory of God all others "come short of the glory of God" in all they think and do.

 

[glfredrick]

HP: glfredrick, let me be frank. If one believes for a minute that the sins one commits on a daily basis, not repented of, and not forsaken, are already forgiven by virtue of their standing with God, such a one is under clear deception. Such deception is no different that the deception of the Jews, that believed by virtue of their lineage they were the eternal children of God.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

The believer is under the same condition of repentance for the forgiveness of current sin as the unbeliever is of his sins.

Jn 1:9 IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The alternative is that we crucify Christ, who died for all sin(s) again and again and also that we fall into and out of our salvific relationship. Is that what you hold?

Note that I am not against confession of sin(s). Of course not! Just that our act of confession is not the ending word in the saga against the curse of sin. If so, we are indeed doomed, for what of the sins that we do not even know we committed, whether by ommision or otherwise?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have nosin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Jesus said, " I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. "

I believe it was Algernon Sydney that said something to this effect. True fortitude of knowledge consists in not allowing the things we do not know or understand to confuse the things we with certainty know.


God is no taskmaster. If it is sin, it always involves voluntary disobedience to a known commandment of God. No knowledge? No sin. James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Now glfredrick, where is your Scripture that states that God will hold you accountable for things you honestly have no knowledge of?

 

[billwald]

If Jesus was tempted in all ways then he had thoughts of rape, pillage, and murder. IF he is all knowing, then Jesus knows what it is like to rape, pillage, and murder.

In other words, you might invite me to join you in a couple of beers but you can't tempt me to drink a beer. I always have a cold one in the fridge.

"Temptation" is contemplating an unknown experience or thinking that an old activity will produce a new outcome. How can God be tempted? There is nothing about rape that God and Jesus doesn't know.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Biblicist: This is referring to sins between Genesis and the cross for those who by faith trusted in the coming Christ and were justified as was Abraham (Acts 10:43; Rom. 4:1-25).

HP: With no supporting evidence for your convenient explanation, we as listeners are simply supposed to believe it because Biblicist says it is so. You cannot be serious.

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: With no supporting evidence for your convenient explanation, we as listeners are simply supposed to believe it because Biblicist says it is so. You cannot be serious.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

When Paul says "AT THIS TIME" he has reference to the time of the cross no the time when some individual person believes but rather in application to ALL BELIEVERS before or after "THIS TIME" or the cross.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Quote:
HP: With no supporting evidence for your convenient explanation, we as listeners are simply supposed to believe it because Biblicist says it is so. You cannot be serious.

I would have to say that the "sins that are past" also include those sins committed by the believers who lived under the law:

"For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance" (Heb.9:15).

 

[glfredrick]

God is no taskmaster. If it is sin, it always involves voluntary disobedience to a known commandment of God. No knowledge? No sin. James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Now glfredrick, where is your Scripture that states that God will hold you accountable for things you honestly have no knowledge of?

Romans 7:13 (ESV)
Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.

What Paul is saying here is that even before he realized that he had sin, he had sin. My point is that no human from a self-centered vantage point will EVER know all of their sins, for we sin by omission and commission. We sin by neglect and by choice. We sin when we do not intend to sin and we sin when we wish to sin. To say otherwise is to disagree with God who says very clearly that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." I do not see where He sets apart a group that do not sin because they now know what sin is. The only "sinless" one is Christ, and praise God for that, because had He sinned we would have no hope of attaining His imputed righteousness.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jerry: I would have to say that the "sins that are past" also include those sins committed by the believers who lived under the law:

HP:I would agree.

I think the real import of this verse is to establish that forgiveness granted addresses sins antecedent to the time of forgiveness, NOT future acts of sin that one has not repented from, as so many would unjustly assume.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Glfredrick, Romans 7 needs to be addressed by itself at some point. For now let me say this. When one speaks of sin within them, or speaks of ones 'nature', that does not force the conclusion that one is speaking to original sin, nor sin(s) from birth. Hopefully in time we will look at those issues more closely.

 

[glfredrick]

Glfredrick, Romans 7 needs to be addressed by itself at some point. For now let me say this. When one speaks of sin within them, or speaks of ones 'nature', that does not force the conclusion that one is speaking to original sin, nor sin(s) from birth. Hopefully in time we will look at those issues more closely.

So, you are dodging when confronted with the proof-texting that you asked for?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

No, I am not dodging you. I have just been typing too much this morning already and need to get some other things accomplished. I will come back to this issue later. :thumbsup:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

HP:I would agree.

I think the real import of this verse is to establish that forgiveness granted addresses sins antecedent to the time of forgiveness, NOT future acts of sin that one has not repented from, as so many would unjustly assume.

We must distinguish between our "standing" before God and our actual "state."

In our standing before God we are "perfected forever":

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb.10:10,14).

The sanctification spoken of there is ours as a result of being "in Christ." And here also speaks of another blessings which we have received as a result of being "in Him":

"And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faithfulness of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Phil.3:9).

Once we believe the gospel our life is hidden with Christ so the only righteousness which God sees in regard to out "standing" is the righteousness which is of God:

"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God" (Col.3:1-3).