What is "Sovereignty"??

[Derf B]

Both statements are accurate. You must be saved before you can want to repent. It's foolishness until then.

If you hold that your first statement, "Whoever reacts is controlled by whoever causes what they react to. This is not God but an idol." is accurate, then you are agreeing with my contention: that you are saying God does NOT answer our prayers, when we ask for bread, He gives us a stone, or that God did NOT write with His finger on Moses' second set of tablets, that the hand, writing on Belshazzar's wall, was going to happen anyway?

And you are calling God an idol?? That seems rather unwise, Brother Dave!

 

[Derf B]

God is like a Father, and indeed He is our Father in Heaven, and in being such, He exerts His authority over His children, but a child has the freedom to obey or disobey the father and thus, gets the consequences or rewards of his/her actions in doing so. The Bible has always presented God in this way as far as authority goes. He is sovereign, knowing all things and having power in all things, but saying God uses His power to force His children to decide to trust His son or not is making Him seem like an abuser, not a loving, merciful Father who Loves His children regardless of what they choose.

It is loving for God to force us to behave a certain way, if that way is for the best for us. For instance, a parent SHOULD force a child to stay out of the street when a car is coming, or that parent is not loving. The situation might be different when the child is no longer a child. It might be in the former child's best interest to let him be hurt by the oncoming car, in order to avoid a more fruitless existence.

But if parent could force the child to always believe the parent is correct, that's a different story.

Can God do so? I believe He can but not without violating His creation. If He created man to be able to choose to obey Him or not, and then strips man of such a choice, He is admitting that He was wrong to give him the choice in the first place.

 

[Miss E]

It is loving for God to force us to behave a certain way, if that way is for the best for us. For instance, a parent SHOULD force a child to stay out of the street when a car is coming, or that parent is not loving. The situation might be different when the child is no longer a child. It might be in the former child's best interest to let him be hurt by the oncoming car, in order to avoid a more fruitless existence.

But if parent could force the child to always believe the parent is correct, that's a different story.

Can God do so? I believe He can but not without violating His creation. If He created man to be able to choose to obey Him or not, and then strips man of such a choice, He is admitting that He was wrong to give him the choice in the first place.

Well I believe that is a true thing to say of God, that He makes us more like Him to be Holy, but only through His Holy Spirit, and that is after we accept Christ as our Lord. And I agree with your last statement about God violating His creation by not giving them a freedom to choose willingly.

 

[Particular]

Do you think He does that with every act of rebellion of every person? In other words, let's say Joe Blow has been sitting in his basement for 3 weeks straight, playing video games instead of helping his elderly mother get groceries. Somebody else ends up helping her with the groceries.

Joe ends up dying of inactivity, and at the GWT judgment, God pulls out the books, and shows Joe that he was supposed to be helping his mom. Do you think God sovereignly had to have used every second of Joe's idle time in the fulfillment of His will? Or might some of that idle time have been wasted in the cosmic scheme of things, and Joe bears the responsibility for the wasted time?

My contention is that while God CAN use any act of man to fulfill His purposes, like the quintessential example of Joseph's brothers, that doesn't mean He HAS to use every act. In fact, if God HAS to use every act, then God might be seen to be dependent on the sinful acts of man, which degrades His sovereignty substantially.

God gives to us the capacity to act according to our nature. God's plans work perfectly within what we imagine to be freedom. As Sovereign King, God tells us that our works will be judged and that which we used to build the Kingdom (wood, hay and stubble) will be burned up, but we will survive the flames.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Derf, why would you wish to limit the authority of God so that your actions could somehow vex his plans?

 

[Particular]

If you hold that your first statement, "Whoever reacts is controlled by whoever causes what they react to. This is not God but an idol." is accurate, then you are agreeing with my contention: that you are saying God does NOT answer our prayers, when we ask for bread, He gives us a stone, or that God did NOT write with His finger on Moses' second set of tablets, that the hand, writing on Belshazzar's wall, was going to happen anyway?

And you are calling God an idol?? That seems rather unwise, Brother Dave!

This is false.
A child cannot be adopted unless the parents proceed with the adoption.
You speak as though God were evil for choosing to make one alive with Christ and give one the gift of faith so that they will believe. Should God leave you dead in your trespasses and sins so that you rot and decay in your filth unto eternity? That would be the other outcome. There is no scenario where you make yourself alive and then produce your own faith to choose Jesus as your Savior. If that were true, then you make yourself god and Jesus your sidekick. You are Batman and Jesus is Robin in such a scenario.

 

[Derf B]

God gives to us the capacity to act according to our nature. God's plans work perfectly within what we imagine to be freedom. As Sovereign King, God tells us that our works will be judged and that which we used to build the Kingdom (wood, hay and stubble) will be burned up, but we will survive the flames.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Derf, why would you wish to limit the authority of God so that your actions could somehow vex his plans?

I don’t think anyone can stop God from fulfilling his plans. Can you point to where you think I said something like that?

 

[Derf B]

Well I believe that is a true thing to say of God, that He makes us more like Him to be Holy, but only through His Holy Spirit, and that is after we accept Christ as our Lord.

I can think of a number of things other than the Holy Spirit that He uses to make us more like Him.
1. Our parents
2. Our pastors
3. His Word
4. Temptations
5. Hardships

That doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit isn’t involved, including with all the foregoing, but He is certainly more nebulous than these things in how He works.

 

[Derf B]

This is false.
A child cannot be adopted unless the parents proceed with the adoption.
You speak as though God were evil for choosing to make one alive with Christ and give one the gift of faith so that they will believe. Should God leave you dead in your trespasses and sins so that you rot and decay in your filth unto eternity? That would be the other outcome. There is no scenario where you make yourself alive and then produce your own faith to choose Jesus as your Savior. If that were true, then you make yourself god and Jesus your sidekick. You are Batman and Jesus is Robin in such a scenario.

I appreciate your analogy of dead people getting adopted (especially since Dick Grayson, after his parents died, was Bruce Wayne’s ward), I really do, but aren’t you mixing your metaphors a bit?

 

[1689Dave]

If you hold that your first statement, "Whoever reacts is controlled by whoever causes what they react to. This is not God but an idol." is accurate, then you are agreeing with my contention: that you are saying God does NOT answer our prayers, when we ask for bread, He gives us a stone, or that God did NOT write with His finger on Moses' second set of tablets, that the hand, writing on Belshazzar's wall, was going to happen anyway?

And you are calling God an idol?? That seems rather unwise, Brother Dave!

If your idea about god doesn't align with scripture, you create an idol.

 

[Derf B]

If your idea about god doesn't align with scripture, you create an idol.

Which part of what I said doesn’t align with scripture? Don’t be lazy! Give references.

You should be trying to convince me, not just spouting your own philosophy.

And don’t forget to tie it back into the “sovereignty” topic.


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[1689Dave]

Which part of what I said doesn’t align with scripture? Don’t be lazy! Give references.

You should be trying to convince me, not just spouting your own philosophy.

And don’t forget to tie it back into the “sovereignty” topic.


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Why should I cater to you?

 

[Derf B]

Why should I cater to you?

I'll give you 3 reasons:

1. You are commenting on my thread.
2. This thread is in the "Christian Debate Forums" category, not the "I'll belch out my opinion without any reasoning" category.
3. 1 Pet 3:15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

If you do actually read my response, where I've done as I've asked you to do, you might notice that giving an answer for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and respect, is tied directly to the idea that it serves to sanctify Christ as Lord in our hearts.

The corollary would be that if you DON'T give an answer for the hope that is in you, still with gentleness and respect, you are NOT sanctifying Christ as Lord in your heart...or that you have no hope in you. If that's the case, let's talk about it in more detail.

 

[1689Dave]

I'll give you 3 reasons:

1. You are commenting on my thread.
2. This thread is in the "Christian Debate Forums" category, not the "I'll belch out my opinion without any reasoning" category.
3. 1 Pet 3:15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

If you do actually read my response, where I've done as I've asked you to do, you might notice that giving an answer for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and respect, is tied directly to the idea that it serves to sanctify Christ as Lord in our hearts.

The corollary would be that if you DON'T give an answer for the hope that is in you, still with gentleness and respect, you are NOT sanctifying Christ as Lord in your heart...or that you have no hope in you. If that's the case, let's talk about it in more detail.

I don't respond well to those exhibiting your attitude. How do I know I'm not taking orders from the Devil if I do? What do you have to show that would lead me to think I'm not?

 

[Derf B]

I don't respond well to those exhibiting your attitude. How do I know I'm not taking orders from the Devil if I do? What do you have to show that would lead me to think I'm not?

3 answers. You get to choose the one you like (or all of them, if applicable)):

1. Maybe you can tell me what part of my attitude would lead you to think I'm the Devil.
2. I'm humbled that you put me in the same category as Jesus, when the pharisees said He did miracles by the power of Beelzebub, though I haven't done any miracles. Is reasoning only possible because of the Devil's power??
3. Are you suggesting that Peter was saying we only give an answer, with gentleness and respect, to those that are already believers, since everyone else is "of the Devil"? Is that the result of your doctrine, that only believers are allowed to hear the gospel? Of what use, then, is the gospel?? It sounds like you think it has no power to save. [Rom 1:16 KJV] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[1689Dave]

3 answers. You get to choose the one you like (or all of them, if applicable)):

1. Maybe you can tell me what part of my attitude would lead you to think I'm the Devil.
2. I'm humbled that you put me in the same category as Jesus, when the pharisees said He did miracles by the power of Beelzebub, though I haven't done any miracles. Is reasoning only possible because of the Devil's power??
3. Are you suggesting that Peter was saying we only give an answer, with gentleness and respect, to those that are already believers, since everyone else is "of the Devil"? Is that the result of your doctrine, that only believers are allowed to hear the gospel? Of what use, then, is the gospel?? It sounds like you think it has no power to save. [Rom 1:16 KJV] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

what is your theological background? Are you Amillennial? Calvinist? as I am? If not we have nothing in common.

 

[Derf B]

what is your theological background? Are you Amillennial? Calvinist? as I am? If not we have nothing in common.

Let's pretend for just a moment that I'm not a Calvinist, but I'm asking questions about how Calvinism works, since this forum is for debating between Arminianism and Calvinism?. Are you saying that because I'm not already a Calvinist, then you won't "be ready in season and out to give an answer for the hope that lies within you"?

Not only does one have to be saved, in your theological background, in order to be saved, but one has to already be a Calvinist in order to become a Calvinist???

You might be right that we have nothing in common, since I believe God sent Jesus Christ in the flesh to die so that men might live forever.

Nevertheless, I feel I have a duty to share the truth of the gospel with you, despite how little we have in common.

 

[1689Dave]

Let's pretend for just a moment that I'm not a Calvinist, but I'm asking questions about how Calvinism works, since this forum is for debating between Arminianism and Calvinism?. Are you saying that because I'm not already a Calvinist, then you won't "be ready in season and out to give an answer for the hope that lies within you"?

Not only does one have to be saved, in your theological background, in order to be saved, but one has to already be a Calvinist in order to become a Calvinist???

You might be right that we have nothing in common, since I believe God sent Jesus Christ in the flesh to die so that men might live forever.

Nevertheless, I feel I have a duty to share the truth of the gospel with you, despite how little we have in common.

It only means any discussion is useless if you haven't already grasped the truth of Amillennialism and Calvinism.

 

[Derf B]

It only means any discussion is useless if you haven't already grasped the truth of Amillennialism and Calvinism.

Which also means that any discussion is useless, if I HAVE already grasped the truth of Amillenialism and Calvinism.

Which profoundly illustrates what I’ve come to understand about Calvinism: that it is a useless doctrine, at least the 5 points part of it. It only helps those who don’t need help.

But despite our disagreement about the doctrine, I don’t think the discussion is useless.

The sick are the ones that need a physician. And that fits very well with my proposed concept of sovereignty!


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[1689Dave]

Which also means that any discussion is useless, if I HAVE already grasped the truth of Amillenialism and Calvinism.

Which profoundly illustrates what I’ve come to understand about Calvinism: that it is a useless doctrine, at least the 5 points part of it. It only helps those who don’t need help.

But despite our disagreement about the doctrine, I don’t think the discussion is useless.

The sick are the ones that need a physician. And that fits very well with my proposed concept of sovereignty!


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If you grasped the truth of Calvinism, you would be a Calvinist. And know how scripture defines Calvinism. By the way, Calvin, Luther, and all of the Reformers were Augustinians And agreed with the Ecumenical Creeds and their rejection of free will. You are more like the Catholics and their free will understanding than you are with the Bible. So you've already been defeated time and again by far better than me.

 

[Derf B]

If you grasped the truth of Calvinism, you would be a Calvinist. And know how scripture defines Calvinism. By the way, Calvin, Luther, and all of the Reformers were Augustinians And agreed with the Ecumenical Creeds and their rejection of free will. You are more like the Catholics and their free will understanding than you are with the Bible. So you've already been defeated time and again by far better than me.

I tried hanging out with calvinists for 15 years. They were good Christians. Most loved the Lord, but when I asked my pastor (one of those Calvinists) a question, he had to throw off Calvinism to give me a straight answer. He was honest.

You, however are not as mature as he was, since you can’t give me a straight answer, but you’re not willing to throw off the Calvinism for a minute.


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