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Featured What is the Atonement?

Discussion in 'Pastoral Ministries' started by Robert William, Mar 27, 2015.

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  1. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    Would it not have made more sense, then, for Paul to have written "by faith are ye saved through grace?"

    As for going in circles, you are the one who keeps going back to this well of thinking that faith is a work, even though the scriptures state that faith is not counted as a work.
     
    #21 PreachTony, Mar 28, 2015
  2. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    I know that some of the Cals here are accused of that. I hate that for them. I don't believe the Calvinists on this board worship Calvin. That doesn't mean I agree with the theological system he developed, but I don't think that makes any Calvinist an idol worshiper.

    RW is very ardent in his assertion that anyone who believes man has free will is worshiping an idol.
     
    #22 PreachTony, Mar 28, 2015
  3. Robert William

    Robert William Member
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    Nobody here yet has answered my main question for this topic, what did the atonement do for some sinners?????
     
    #23 Robert William, Mar 28, 2015
  4. Robert William

    Robert William Member
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    Right, the idol is self because of a self righteous choice, you can boast that you are better than your neighbor because you chose and he didn't. But scripture clearly teaches that born from above Christians have NOTHING to boast about.
     
    #24 Robert William, Mar 28, 2015
  5. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    Any free willer who boasts of being better than anyone else would earn my criticism. I'm not better than anyone else, even though I believe God offers us a choice. You've set yourself up a boogeyman simply so you can be against it.

    I'm not saying there aren't any free will believers who would act that way...similarly, though, Calvinists and monergists could adopt a similar idea of boasting, thinking they are better than someone because God has chosen them instead of their neighbor.
     
    #25 PreachTony, Mar 28, 2015
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Do you understand that you are being evangelized? That is why theses cagey cals join this board because they think if you do not believe as they do they need to evangelize you.
     
    #26 Revmitchell, Mar 28, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 28, 2015
  7. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    Yeah, I should realize that... :BangHead:
     
    #27 PreachTony, Mar 28, 2015
  8. Robert William

    Robert William Member
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    If you are referring to me you have just bore false witness, also I'm not a Calvinist.
     
    #28 Robert William, Mar 28, 2015
  9. robustheologian

    robustheologian Well-Known Member
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    Don't let it bother. That's not the first time he has...and i'm sure it won't be the last. :laugh:
     
    #29 robustheologian, Mar 28, 2015
  10. Robert William

    Robert William Member
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    Thanks bro :) It's so mind boggling to see and hear so many preachers poisoned with pelagianism, perhaps it's all part of the great falling for the end times.
     
    #30 Robert William, Mar 28, 2015
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    :laugh::thumbsup:

    Closer to my point is that divine wrath is in, a meaningful way, an expression of divine love. Again I think that we need to clarify the context. Here I am thinking of instances where God visited wrath upon Israel either for their betterment (as a whole or individual), for His own glorification (exhibited either to that current or a future generation), or in His overall plan of redemption (probably the best example here is Christ).

    Often God’s wrath and hate is presented in terms of discipline (particularly dealing with OT Israel), and that this discipline - while being described as wrath and hate - is far from the opposite of love. I think that in your context it is best simply to acknowledge that God loves the Church as His particular possession. This is a love that is extended to only His children and in this context God does not “love” everyone.

    BTW, there was an increase for a time in preaching “hate sin and hate the sinner.” Unfortunately most of these sermons (that I heard) taught erroneous doctrine because they took the idea severely out of context. The flip side (which probably spurred the overstatement just mentioned) was preaching that God loves everyone no matter what. Both statements, if left unqualified, are erroneous.
     
    #31 JonC, Mar 28, 2015
  12. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    The atonement Christ brought by His death brought reconciliation. If the atonement is universal so is the reconciliation. There's a bunch of reconciled folk in hell if the universal atonement rings true...
     
    #32 convicted1, Mar 30, 2015
  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    This is a common begging the question fallacy made by the reformed.
     
    #33 Revmitchell, Mar 30, 2015
  14. robustheologian

    robustheologian Well-Known Member
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    Amen. Part of me thinks the warped view of atonement equaling reconciliation comes from a misunderstanding of imputation. Usually those believe in universal atonement have a wrong view of original sin and depravity.
     
    #34 robustheologian, Mar 31, 2015
  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    That is right. We do not agree on your false view of original sin and depravity.
     
    #35 Revmitchell, Mar 31, 2015
  16. robustheologian

    robustheologian Well-Known Member
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    And here folks we have the Arminian calling right wrong and wrong right...as is usually the case.
     
    #36 robustheologian, Mar 31, 2015
  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    OK Zaac your usual saying the opposite when you have nothing else. Also Bob is apparently the only arminian in the board.
     
    #37 Revmitchell, Mar 31, 2015
  18. robustheologian

    robustheologian Well-Known Member
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    Lol...the old "when they have nothing to say accuse someone of being someone else" trick. :applause:
     
    #38 robustheologian, Mar 31, 2015
  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Prime zaac :laugh:
     
    #39 Revmitchell, Mar 31, 2015
  20. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Does the atonement bring reconciliation?
     
    #40 convicted1, Mar 31, 2015
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