What is the "Crossless" Gospel?

[Revmitchell]

So basically, they couldn't be saved in the OT?

Present their gospel message for me, if you can.

skypair

Scripture points to the cross:

1. In the fall of man
2. Abraham takes Isaac to sacrifice
3. The brass serpent
4. The Levitical sacrifices
5. The Passover

Do I need to go on?

 

[skypair]

The OT looks forward to the future coming and sacrifice of the perfect Lamb of God on the cross.

Y'all (BroBob and Revmitchell as well) do realize that this is a BOGUS contention, right? The gospel of the OT was, from Genesis, that the seed of the serpent would bruise His heel -- IOW, keep His kingdom ("footstool" in the earth) from being established -- and the seed of the woman would bruise the head of the serpent -- IOW, overthrow his rule and forgive sin. It was the kingdom of the SEED that was the hope of the OT, aka "the gospel of the kingdom!" They had absolutely no idea how sin would be forgiven, folks!

But during Jesus advent, that kingdom was proclaimed with this addition -- it was "at hand!" It was here!! Still a "crossless" gospel! Paul tells us that if the "princes of this world" had known, "they would NOT have CRUCIFIED the Lord of glory!" (1Cor 2:8) Make no mistake --- it the demons didn't know it, God's people didn't know it until it was a "fait accompli!"

The serpent instead, thought he had "cancelled" the "seed of woman's" kingdom -- the MK!

When Christ comes again, it will be thought that He has cancelled (but He will only "bruise") "the seed of the serpent's" kingdom. But no -- there will be another rebellion, Rev 20:7!

And let there be no doubt of this --- Christ will already be in Jerusalem where He will have been the 1000 years before that final hour of the MK and of the old earth when Satan has Him/them surrounded, Rev 20:9. "And fire came down from GOD out of heaven and devoured them [the rebels]." This is NOT Jesus coming back -- it is GOD destroying the Son's enemies! And what follows is Christ's GWT throne "evacuating" the earth in what IMO is the last rapture, Rev 20:11.

His blood is the ONLY blood capable of PERMANENTLY removing the stain of sin.

Of course it is! And EVERY OT saint MUST be resurrected to earth and into the MK and acknowledge/receive that "His blood" just as we have!!

I pray that you all will begin to understand this. It will help your sotierology, your eschatology, and your faith, guys. raying:

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Y'all (BroBob and Revmitchell as well) do realize that this is a BOGUS contention, right? The gospel of the OT was, from Genesis, that the seed of the serpent would bruise His heel -- IOW, keep His kingdom ("footstool" in the earth) from being established -- and the seed of the woman would bruise the head of the serpent -- IOW, overthrow his rule and forgive sin. It was the kingdom of the SEED that was the hope of the OT, aka "the gospel of the kingdom!" They had absolutely no idea how sin would be forgiven, folks!

But during Jesus advent, that kingdom was proclaimed with this addition -- it was "at hand!" It was here!! Still a "crossless" gospel! Paul tells us that if the "princes of this world" had known, "they would NOT have CRUCIFIED the Lord of glory!" (1Cor 2:8) Make no mistake --- it the demons didn't know it, God's people didn't know it until it was a "fait accompli!"

The serpent instead, thought he had "cancelled" the "seed of woman's" kingdom -- the MK!

When Christ comes again, it will be thought that He has cancelled (but He will only "bruise") "the seed of the serpent's" kingdom. But no -- there will be another rebellion, Rev 20:7!

And let there be no doubt of this --- Christ will already be in Jerusalem where He will have been the 1000 years before that final hour of the MK and of the old earth when Satan has Him/them surrounded, Rev 20:9. "And fire came down from GOD out of heaven and devoured them [the rebels]." This is NOT Jesus coming back -- it is GOD destroying the Son's enemies! And what follows is Christ's GWT throne "evacuating" the earth in what IMO is the last rapture, Rev 20:11.

Of course it is! And EVERY OT saint MUST be resurrected to earth and into the MK and acknowledge/receive that "His blood" just as we have!!

I pray that you all will begin to understand this. It will help your sotierology, your eschatology, and your faith, guys. raying:

skypair

Perhaps, you have forgotten that Jesus stood as a "slain Lamb" from the foundation of the world. Of course if you don't believe the fountain has been opened by Christ, I guess you really are in the dark...........

BBob,

 

[skypair]

Perhaps, you have forgotten that Jesus stood as a "slain Lamb" from the foundation of the world.

So when did they start slaying lambs on crosses, Bob. We're talking about "crossless gospels" here. We're talking about what has been revealed to MEN as the gospel of salvation.

Please address, if you can, the points I made -- not the ones I didn't make.

1) I said there was NO cross in the OT gospel and I think I proved that pretty well.

2) I said that the gospel that they DID know had to do with an earthly MK of Christ occurring when the "Seed" would bruise the "serpent's head" -- take away his earthly "kingdom" -- and not until. You have yet to prove that Satan is bruised. Instead, it can be proven that he runs a parallel spiritual and physical kingdom to Christ's at this time.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

So when did they start slaying lambs on crosses, Bob. We're talking about "crossless gospels" here. We're talking about what has been revealed to MEN as the gospel of salvation.

Please address, if you can, the points I made -- not the ones I didn't make.

1) I said there was NO cross in the OT gospel and I think I proved that pretty well.

2) I said that the gospel that they DID know had to do with an earthly MK of Christ occurring when the "Seed" would bruise the "serpent's head" -- take away his earthly "kingdom" -- and not until. You have yet to prove that Satan is bruised. Instead, it can be proven that he runs a parallel spiritual and physical kingdom to Christ's at this time.

skypair

Jesus has always been around and as the slain Lamb also. The promise to Israel was the slain lamb and also, He was right there with them all along. You just want to stick with literal words and not spiritual.

Act 7:38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

BBob,

 

[skypair]

Act 7:38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Nice allusion to MOSES, Bobby. It was MOSES who received the "lively oracles." It was MOSES that they "thrust from them" and would have turned back to Egypt.

But furthermore, was the "Shekinah Glory" the Spirit or Christ or God? What do you think, Bob? And who then was that "angel" that met Moses in the burning bush?

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Nice allusion to MOSES, Bobby. It was MOSES who received the "lively oracles." It was MOSES that they "thrust from them" and would have turned back to Egypt.

But furthermore, was the "Shekinah Glory" the Spirit or Christ or God? What do you think, Bob? And who then was that "angel" that met Moses in the burning bush?

skypair

Without the cross, there is no resurrection, period.

1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

But every man in his own order.

Quit trying to say there is some other kind of resurrection, the scripture says "in Christ shall all be made alive". If you go beyond that it is heresy and I don't want to hear it.


BBob,

 

[skypair]

Without the cross, there is no resurrection, period.

True, but NOBODY in the OT knew that, did they? And truly, the souls held in Abraham's bosom were not resurrected until after the cross. But now we're getting into the idea that there are different kinds of resurrections, aren't we. 1) Resurrection of the soul, 2) resurrection of the body to earth, 3) rapture of the body to heaven, and 4) the "resurrection" of the dead unbeliever to new life in Christ as signified by his/her baptism!

Interestingly, one of these appears to have happened post-cross but pre-resurrection of Christ, eh? How come? Have you figured it out?

Now don't be a "grumpy old man" here. Teach me.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

True, but NOBODY in the OT knew that, did they? And truly, the souls held in Abraham's bosom were not resurrected until after the cross. But now we're getting into the idea that there are different kinds of resurrections, aren't we. 1) Resurrection of the soul, 2) resurrection of the body to earth, 3) rapture of the body to heaven, and 4) the "resurrection" of the dead unbeliever to new life in Christ as signified by his/her baptism!

Interestingly, one of these appears to have happened post-cross but pre-resurrection of Christ, eh? How come? Have you figured it out?

Now don't be a "grumpy old man" here. Teach me.

skypair

Even if they knew it or not, they knew of the Messiah to come. Whether they knew it or not, it happened.

No, remember the fountain that was opened to the house of David for sin and uncleanliness? Well when they peirced Jesus in the side, that fountain was opened and flowed back and forward.

Remember when Jeus came from the grave and many of the bodies of the saints arose. That was the First Resurrection.
IMO

You hang around long enough and you will have to forsake some of that doctrine of yours yet..........

BBob,

 

[MB]

Dear BB Readers:

I appreciated it very much when Sharper Iron announced the opening of Voice of the Evangelists.

Members and contributors to Voice of the Evangelists include: Dr. Chuck Phelps, Dr. Ron Comfort; Evangelists Dave Barba, Morris Gleiser, Steve Pettit, Mike Manor, Dave Young, Rich Tozour, Jim & John VanGelderen, Bryan Samms and many more.

Late in 2007 Evangelist Tom Farrell asked me to prepare an article on the Crossless gospel for publishing at Voice of the Evangelists. Earlier this month Voice published the first of what is a two parts series. The series is titled, What is the “Crossless” Gospel?

This is the link to What is the “Crossless” Gospel, Part 1.

This afternoon Voice of the Evangelists posted part two of the series: What is the “Crossless” Gospel, Part 2.


LM

The word Gospel I'm told means good news. With out the cross there is no good news and no gospel. The main subject of the gospel is that Christ died for our sin on a cross and because of that, if we will but believe, confess, and submit to Him. Even we can be saved.
MB

 

[skypair]

Even if they knew it or not, they knew of the Messiah to come. Whether they knew it or not, it happened.

BOB -- we're talking "gospel" --- TALKING ABOUT REVELATION OF THE CROSS. Whether they "knew it or not" is UNRESPONSIVE, bro!

No, remember the fountain that was opened to the house of David for sin and uncleanliness?

Are you now the "house of David," too, Bob??

Remember when Jeus came from the grave and many of the bodies of the saints arose. That was the First Resurrection.

I give you "half credit" here. It WAS a resurrection; but, specifically, it was the first RAPTURE (1Cor 15:23). "IMO" doesn't help you case. :laugh:

Seriously, though -- you're saying Mt 27:52-53 is the Rev 20:4-5 "first resurrection??" Wow! The tribulation is over? Who were those martyrs who were BEHEADED (besides John the Baptist)? What was the "mark of the beast" that they "received neither in their foreheads, or in their hands???" And you're saying THEY are living and reigning with Christ NOW??? Where??? Hey -- I'll "hold the presses" so we can get this on the "late breaking news!" :laugh:

"Folks, I have it straight from the Master's mouth! We have headless witnesses walking around among us -- no, reigning over us for 1000 years!! That must be Geo. Bush and company! His mum looks the part anyway!!" :laugh:

Bob -- everyone is asking me to check your credentials. Do you have a head?! Oh yeah. That's you in that avatar, right?

You hang around long enough and you will have to forsake some of that doctrine of yours yet..........

I may well do that -- if I find "truer truth."

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

BOB -- we're talking "gospel" --- TALKING ABOUT REVELATION OF THE CROSS. Whether they "knew it or not" is UNRESPONSIVE, bro!

Are you now the "house of David," too, Bob??

I give you "half credit" here. It WAS a resurrection; but, specifically, it was the first RAPTURE (1Cor 15:23). "IMO" doesn't help you case. :laugh:

Seriously, though -- you're saying Mt 27:52-53 is the Rev 20:4-5 "first resurrection??" Wow! The tribulation is over? Who were those martyrs who were BEHEADED (besides John the Baptist)? What was the "mark of the beast" that they "received neither in their foreheads, or in their hands???" And you're saying THEY are living and reigning with Christ NOW??? Where??? Hey -- I'll "hold the presses" so we can get this on the "late breaking news!" :laugh:

"Folks, I have it straight from the Master's mouth! We have headless witnesses walking around among us -- no, reigning over us for 1000 years!! That must be Geo. Bush and company! His mum looks the part anyway!!" :laugh:

Bob -- everyone is asking me to check your credentials. Do you have a head?! Oh yeah. That's you in that avatar, right?

I may well do that -- if I find "truer truth."

skypair

You make a mockery of "even so in Christ are all made alive". Jesus knew all about the saints that came out of the grave, after Jesus arose. Are you making fun of Christ also. You look for animal sacrifices and overlook the cross, I feel sorry for you in some ways. Then another, I consider it ignorance.

I do not think anyone listens to you, but then again, they do not engage you as I have. Except for Grasshopper and he set the fire under you.
BBob,

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Dear BB Readers:

I appreciated it very much when Sharper Iron announced the opening of Voice of the Evangelists.

Members and contributors to Voice of the Evangelists include: Dr. Chuck Phelps, Dr. Ron Comfort; Evangelists Dave Barba, Morris Gleiser, Steve Pettit, Mike Manor, Dave Young, Rich Tozour, Jim & John VanGelderen, Bryan Samms and many more.

Late in 2007 Evangelist Tom Farrell asked me to prepare an article on the Crossless gospel for publishing at Voice of the Evangelists. Earlier this month Voice published the first of what is a two parts series. The series is titled, What is the “Crossless” Gospel?

This is the link to What is the “Crossless” Gospel, Part 1.

This afternoon Voice of the Evangelists posted part two of the series: What is the “Crossless” Gospel, Part 2.


LM

Sounds like gnosticism to me.

 

[skypair]

... Jesus knew all about the saints that came out of the grave, after Jesus arose. ...

So Mt 27:52-53 IS Rev 20:4-5. Now THAT'S mocking God, friend. One inconsistency you ignore is -- you have always insisted that those in Rev 20:4-5 were SOULS but those in Mt 27:52-53 are clearly BODIES.

So again I ask -- since these people (Mt 27) "live and reign with Christ a 1000 years" (Rev 20) -- where are they, Bob?? Do you think they suffered the "second death?" But that CAN'T be so, can it (Rev 20:6).

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

So Mt 27:52-53 IS Rev 20:4-5. Now THAT'S mocking God, friend. One inconsistency you ignore is -- you have always insisted that those in Rev 20:4-5 were SOULS but those in Mt 27:52-53 are clearly BODIES.

So again I ask -- since these people (Mt 27) "live and reign with Christ a 1000 years" (Rev 20) -- where are they, Bob?? Do you think they suffered the "second death?" But that CAN'T be so, can it (Rev 20:6).

skypair

You do err so bad. Of course it was souls before the white robe, which comes from the blood of the Lamb. When Jesus arose from the dead and many of the bodies of the saints arose, then those bodies received their souls back. IMO

Where are they? They are with the Lord.

Everything you believe is as if Jesus accomplished nothing, that it is all yet to come. I really think you live on dangereous ground. Jesus said, except you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins. What is "He"? He is the Messiah of which a larger portion of Israel rejected, of whom you seem to have joined. IMO

You whole argument on almost anything is that it is to come, leaving Jesus out of it. The ship is sailing, if you can't see it, you are in trouble. IMO


BBob,

 

[skypair]

You do err so bad. Of course it was souls before the white robe, which comes from the blood of the Lamb. When Jesus arose from the dead and many of the bodies of the saints arose, then they received their souls back.

Where are they? They are with the Lord.

OK, I'll play your "game" -- so they are reigning in heaven with Christ in a spiritual kingdom?

So they are there bodily? They are there in the bodies they received in Mt 27:52-53? Cause otherwise they would have to experience the "second death" to get there, right?

So basically, was that the pretrib rapture?

OK, lets go back -- what was the mark of the beast that they didn't take?

When were the living saints raptured (1Thes 4:17 -- "... then we which are alive and remain...")? Why weren't the disciples taken? You do realize that the only way you can get out of here (earth) alive -- as in "live and reign" -- is via the rapture (1Cor 15:51-52), right?

If you can navigate these questions, no doubt I will have more if only just for the entertainment value.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

OK, I'll play your "game" -- so they are reigning in heaven with Christ in a spiritual kingdom?

So they are there bodily? They are there in the bodies they received in Mt 27:52-53? Cause otherwise they would have to experience the "second death" to get there, right?

So basically, was that the pretrib rapture?

OK, lets go back -- what was the mark of the beast that they didn't take?

When were the living saints raptured (1Thes 4:17 -- "... then we which are alive and remain...")? Why weren't the disciples taken? You do realize that the only way you can get out of here (earth) alive -- as in "live and reign" -- is via the rapture (1Cor 15:51-52), right?

If you can navigate these questions, no doubt I will have more if only just for the entertainment value.

skypair

Christ is reigning from Heaven. Part of the Kingdom is within us and part in Heaven. Scripture says many of the bodies of the saints arose and went into that Holy City. Your problem is you do not know what the city is. It is the saved and believers in Christ, they make up that City of New Jerusalem. The foundations is the 12 Apostles of the Lamb, the twelve Gates, the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. Jesus Christ and God being the temple within that City. Jesus is also the cheif corner stone.

When the bodies of the saints arose alive from the grave and then went into that Holy City, you don't call a resurrection??

Mark of the beast, You again are looking for a big "stamp" to be put on the unbeliever, while their own life is the mark of the beast, as the christians have the mark of a christian. Do you deny that??
You just completely go around all the work of Christ.

We which are left and remain are in the General resurrection, when all the believers shall be resurrected and go to be with Christ. You confuse the two resurrections. There is a first, which is Christ and there is a second, which is all the believers.

I think you also confuse the Trib with the Wrath of God, of which many even on here make the same mistake. The tribulations will be while the saved are here, but the wrath of God, the saved will be with the Lord.

I would not give the doctrine I believe for all the heresy you put forth.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

Scripture says many of the bodies of the saints arose and went into that Holy City. Your problem is you do not know what the city is.

NJ?? The people that survived them saw them on earth, Bob! How in the world do you twist that account so?!

When the bodies of the saints arose alive from the grave and then went into that Holy City, you don't call a resurrection??

Bob -- you're "trash talking" again. They went into EARTHLY Jerusalem where they were seen by EARTHLY people.

Mark of the beast, You again are looking for a big "stamp" to be put on the unbeliever, while their own life is the mark of the beast, as the christians have the mark of a christian. Do you deny that??

Sure do. The "big stamp" is in their forehead and their right hand. Not having that VISIBLE mark means you can't buy or sell.

You're talking like a Seventh Day Adventist, Bob, who think the MotB is worshipping on Sunday. Is that the kind of mark you are referring to? What is sad is that still spiritualize literal passages as you do!

We which are left and remain are in the General resurrection, when all the believers shall be resurrected and go to be with Christ. You confuse the two resurrections. There is a first, which is Christ and there is a second, which is all the believers.

Doesn't 'wash' Bob. When the dead in Christ are raptured (which you put at Mt 27:52-53) then the live in Christ are also supposed to be raptured. I suggest you go back to studying up on the issue and come back with better answers.

I would not give the doctrine I believe for all the heresy you put forth.

Friend, it is YOU making the error of Hymenaeus. It is YOU ought to be trembling in your boots and who ought to stop blaspheming.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Scripture says many of the bodies of the saints arose and went into that Holy City. Your problem is you do not know what the city is.

NJ?? The people that survived them saw them on earth, Bob! How in the world do you twist that account so?!

Who saw them, no one saw Jesus raise that I know of.


Quote:
When the bodies of the saints arose alive from the grave and then went into that Holy City, you don't call a resurrection??
Bob -- you're "trash talking" again. They went into EARTHLY Jerusalem where they were seen by EARTHLY people.

That is silly, so you think they are going to die naturally again. Again, who saw them??? Scripture tells us of the resurrection of Christ, which no one saw, that I know of. Also, scripture tells us the saints arose and went into that Holy City. No one here on earth saw them. So the saints went into natural Jerusalem. Hogwash

Quote:
Mark of the beast, You again are looking for a big "stamp" to be put on the unbeliever, while their own life is the mark of the beast, as the christians have the mark of a christian. Do you deny that??
Sure do. The "big stamp" is in their forehead and their right hand. Not having that VISIBLE mark means you can't buy or sell.

Do you believe a Christian has a mark of a Christian now???

You're talking like a Seventh Day Adventist, Bob, who think the MotB is worshipping on Sunday. Is that the kind of mark you are referring to? What is sad is that still spiritualize literal passages as you do!

No, I am talking about their life as a Christian. They are a City sit on a hill that cannot be hid.

Quote:
We which are left and remain are in the General resurrection, when all the believers shall be resurrected and go to be with Christ. You confuse the two resurrections. There is a first, which is Christ and there is a second, which is all the believers.
Doesn't 'wash' Bob. When the dead in Christ are raptured (which you put at Mt 27:52-53) then the live in Christ are also supposed to be raptured. I suggest you go back to studying up on the issue and come back with better answers.

They came out of the grave alive and then went to Heaven. The "live" in Christ will be in the next resurrection. You fail to recognize the First fruits.

Quote:
I would not give the doctrine I believe for all the heresy you put forth.
Friend, it is YOU making the error of Hymenaeus. It is YOU ought to be trembling in your boots and who ought to stop blaspheming.

skypair

It is you who never gives Christ credit for anything. You say someday you will give Him credit, but what about now!!

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Sounds like gnosticism to me.

Its not Gnocticism. Its a reductionst interpretation of the Gospel that leaves virtually nothing that could be reasonably identified as the biblical plan of salvation.


LM