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what is the "day of the Lord"???
- Thread starter Greektim
- Start date
I knew it was somewhere. Did everything have to happen on the first day or does days allow for more to happen later?
Depends on if you believe the last days means thousands of years or if you believe the last days refers to a imited specific time frame. If it means thousands of years then it really has no meaning as far as a time indicator since everyone past the 1st century Apostles have been living in the last days.
Yet Peter quotes much more than just the part dealing with the outbreak of tongues. He doesn't split it up, but you do.
The problem with Dispies is they just insert gaps whenever their view runs into trouble. Whether the 69th and 70th week of Daniel or Matthew 16:27-28, or this prophecy in Acts.
You must deal with Scripture objectively and honestly.
Ask yourself: Did the sun turn into darkness and did the moon turn into blood? How do you account for that? It cannot be ignored.
But you ignore Scripture completely. It is amazing how you do that.
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. (Isaiah 11:6-8)
When did this happen?
Will there actually be a time when time shall be no more or is that a figure of speech?
Has, the dispensation of the fulness of the times, come and gone, going on or still in the future?
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Greektim
Well-Known Member
It is not ignored, it was figural. Peter says that what was happening in Acts 2 ("this" going back to the coming of the Spirit and speaking in tongues) Joel wrote about in Joel 2 ("is that"). So the burden of proof is on you to prove that either Peter was mistaken or there is more yet to happen in Joel 2. Otherwise, Joel 2 has been fulfilled at Acts 2, and the apocalyptic signs were merely figural to indicate the universal changing event that took place on that fateful day.
I have stated my case fairly well.
The accusation was made: "These men are drunk with wine."
Why did they make the accusation?
The accusation was made because people were speaking in tongues, a phenomena they had never seen and was inexplicable to them.
That is the context of the prophesy that Peter was referring to.
The rest of the prophesy is yet to be fulfilled.
Why? Because nothing of that nature happened then.
If it did, the onus is on you to give the evidence that it did, not on me.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
I get the flow of the text. I really do. This is one of the passages I was published about defending the same view as you are right now.
The problem is, you are not allowing a figural interpretation for the sun and moon. And Joel was not written in order to be fulfilled in stages. So either some of it was or none of it was. And you still have to deal with the "this is that" statement that Peter makes. It is hard to get around those words. If that is the case, then your hermeneutic needs to shift to allow a meaning where Joel 2 is fulfilled in Acts 2.
Acts 15 would be the next place to go w/ OT in the NT, although it is not about the DotL. So maybe a new thread, yes?
For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; (Acts 2:15-16)
--I don't understand what is hard for you to comprehend here.
"This is that" (the speaking in tongues) which was spoken by the prophet Joel. And it was.
Look at it this way. These men were very learned in the OT scriptures. Peter was not reading the OT, he was quoting it. It was a familiar passage. When I preach I often read the verses before and after the passage from which I am to preach--to give the wider context. Peter did the same. He quoted more than was necessary to make sure that his audience knew where this passage was coming from. It wasn't just a vague reference he was giving. He quoted an entire passage from Joel.
But he was referring only to one part of it--the part that dealt with speaking in tongues. That is quite evident to see.
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:"
--This is what happened. All believers were indwelt with the Holy Spirit at that time.
--All of this is yet to come.
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
--Pentecost was the beginning of the last days. Verse one speaks of the OT times when God spoke to Israel through the prophets at different times through various ways: dreams, visions, audible voice, theophanies, etc.
--In these last days (since Pentecost) he doesn't do that any longer. He speaks through His Son, who is revealed to us through the canon of Scripture--the Bible. Everything we need to know about Christ is revealed to us in the Word of God.
Thus the rest of the prophecy in Joel did not apply to them and us. God was not using their sons and daughters to prophesy at that time, old men were not dreaming dreams, and there were no signs in the heavens. All of that is still to come.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Actually, I think you missed the entire soteriological point as to why Peter would quote as much of Joel 2 as he did. The last verse is the most likely of reasons. So I think your illustration and reason for why Peter chose to quote more is completely lacking. In fact, most of the time the OT is in the NT, there is very little context mentioned. And it is almost as if you are saying that the quotation is superfluous and unnecessary.
However, something I think you should consider is that all of what Joel 2 prophesied was to be understood as an earth-shattering, world-upturning event -- namely the coming of the HS to enact the New Covenant on the believers. I believe Joel intended that prophecy to be understood as a single event, not a process which you seem to imply (one part is fulfilled while another part is awaiting fulfillment).
As for Peter quoting the OT and their OT learnedness, don't you find it interesting that Peter either misquoted or interpretively changed the text? I wonder if he just had a memory lapse, b/c he makes a number of mistakes from the LXX version and the MT. We have to remember that (a) inspiration goes to what Luke recorded rather than what we think Peter may have said or even meant (or even misquoted) & (b) the ipsissima vox of Peter from Luke is important to remember.
Even more important, what is the theological message behind this narrative that Luke was driving at? We are almost certain that this sermon was much longer than recorded here in Acts 2, but we need to understand why Luke mentions the parts he does, summarizes other parts, and omits the rest. I think when we look at the text in this way (almost a meta-narrative of Luke-Acts), you get the idea that the mission of God to bless with the restoration of Israel and the ingathering of the Gentiles through New Covenant fulfillment is quite obvious. Therefore, looking at the broad context of Luke/Acts, there is much more to this story than meets the eye. If New Covenant fulfillment is a major motif, then it would be exegetical suicide not to first consider that Joel 2 is being fulfilled in Acts 2 with the Day of the Lord taking place. Further, as gentiles come in to the people of God, it seems clear that the restoration of Israel has begun, thus it truly is the Day of the Lord. That is the point of Acts 15 and the Amos 9 quotation.
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After the miracle of tongues Peter said thus:
Acts 2
...
Acts 2
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
This was a sign to the house of Israel. It was necessary to begin with them.
Again in chapter 3
12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel...14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnes...
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
...20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Acts 4:1 And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,
2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.
2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.
And so went the persecution of the apostles by the leadership of Israel until in Acts 13:
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
Thus began the times of the Gentiles which continues to this day, when this Gentile generation ends then the Day of the Lord takes up again where it left off.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.
51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.
52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.
51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.
52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.
Luke 21
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
HankD
Your right, the entire passage was necessary. Looking at it again the last verse is very important. But what many fail to see is the double fulfillment--the near and far prophetic fulfillment. It is so clear I can't see how it can be missed by others. Let's see what it says again:
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. (Joel 2:32)
Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be delivered (saved)--a quote also used by Paul. This was part of the prophesy being fulfilled right then and there. But it would only be partial and it would be extended to the Gentiles. The promise in the prophesy is for the nation of Israel, not the Gentiles. It is in Mt. Zion, in Jerusalem shall come deliverance, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. That speaks directly of the Jews. But that didn't happen at Pentecost. In fact just a few years later, judgment came, and the exact opposite came. The promise wasn't fulfilled. The Temple was destroyed; Jerusalem was sacked; and the Jews scattered. The opposite of what the prophesy said, happened.
But someday it will happen.
It was a great event in history--Pentecost--the coming of the Holy Spirit, but the rest was not fulfilled. The entire prophesy was a partial fulfillment.
Not a process, but two different and separate events. One was fulfilled at Pentecost, and the other will be fulfilled when Christ comes again and sets up His Kingdom.
Those are interesting points. Quoting from memory is not always easy. Perhaps he was using the NIV :laugh:
The prophecy seems to be a lead into a sermon both of salvation and of condemnation--condemning the very ones that had crucified the Lord Jesus Christ by their wicked hands, and a call for them to repent. Out of the great crowd that had gathered 3,000 were saved. It was directed to the Jews on the day of Pentecost. It was a call to repentance. 3,000 of them did.
Peter is saying (sort of), if you think that there is a work of God going on here, wait until you see Christ come and set up his kingdom. That is not what is directly said, but the prophecy points to the Millennial Kingdom. That entire last verse is all about the Millennial kingdom. All of it. Only a very small part of it was partially fulfilled at Pentecost.
Even many dispies would agree that these celestial descriptions happen many times as these phrases are used to describe a fall of the established order in different passages. Many dispies don’t even argue that this is literal. It is accepted almost every where except with the most far out there dispies that this is allegorical and not literal.
Besides as far a literal event if you are familiar with various events in history you would know there have been times when the moon has been what is considered blood red. That wouldn’t be a one time event waiting to happen at some future date. A harvest moon is orange most every year. It can also appear some shades of red. Volcanic ash can cause it to appear red. Some times a total lunar eclipse is known as a blood red moon because of the lunar/celestial effects that happen then. History records a blood red moon accompanying the fall of Constantinople, but that is another story.
DHK my friend you look desperate even among dispies to force a literal interpretation here. To cling to literal here just shows how desperate your case is and how it doesn’t have any legitimate threads left to cling to.
Clinging to the point in such desperation is admitting that your cause is lost.
Do you admit (I won’t say think) that any passages in the bible at all are allegorical or are they all literal?