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What is the "doctrine of providential preservation"?

Mrs KJV

<img src =/MrsKJV.gif>
Doccas Has a lot of great things to say about the KJV and I agree with him a hundred percent. Why would God gives us the word if it is not to be trusted? Doubt about the Word of God, makes us loss trust in God. And we can not grow into mature meat eating christians. I prefer meat and not milk. :D
 

Pastork

New Member
Pioneer,

I don't disagree with the view that God has preserved His Word in the KJV. I just don't think it is the only English translation which may make that claim.

Pastork

[ September 14, 2002, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: Pastork ]
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
Originally posted by Pioneer:
I believe that since God has inspired His word so that it is without error in the "original autographs" he is also capable of preserving His word without error in the English language and has done so in the King James Bible (AV 1611).
Amen, Brother Pioneer -- Preach it!!

That is a subset of what i believe:
God, by His Divine Providence, has preserved
His infallible written word for this generation
in each English Translation.

In honor of this dramatic breakthrough
i offer this verse:

S.Iohn VIII:12 (KJV1611):

Then spake Iesus againe vnto
them, saying, I am the light of the
world: he that followeth mee, shall not
walke in darkenesse, but shall haue the
light of life.


Care to quote the same verse
from your "the King James Bible (AV 1611)"?

Matra of KJBO:
Different is not the same
 

Pastor_Bob

Well-Known Member
S.Iohn VIII:12 (KJV1611):

Then spake Iesus againe vnto
them, saying, I am the light of the
world: he that followeth mee, shall not
walke in darkenesse, but shall haue the
light of life.

Care to quote the same verse
from your "the King James Bible (AV 1611)"?
John 8:12 "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." (KJV)

Looks the same to me. No additions, deletions, or changes other than spelling.

Thank you.
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
John 8:12 (NIV):
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Looks the same to me. No additions, deletions, or changes other than verbage.
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
Originally posted by DocCas:
They read the same, Ed. What is your point?
God, by His Divine Providence, has preserved
His infallible written word for this generation
in each English Translation.

I do note "follows" from the NIV is
in my dictionary; "followeth" from the KJV
is not in my dictionary.
 

Pastor_Bob

Well-Known Member
I do note "follows" from the NIV is
in my dictionary; "followeth" from the KJV
is not in my dictionary.
"-eth" or "-th" suffix
Used to form the archaic third person singular present indicative of verbs: leadeth, followeth.

[Middle English, from Old English -eth, -ath.]

Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.
 

LRL71

New Member
For everyone:

Thanks for all the replies on this subject! I have been away for a couple of days, and since I had started this subject, much has been 'debated' here as well as discussed.

My intentions were to point out the serious doubts of mine about what "KJV-onlyists" have placed on what they define 'providential preservation of the Bible text'. I call it heresy!
I use my 'infallible' NASB, NIV, NASB, and.... my KJV!

Many thanks to DocCas and Pastork for their discussion on the 'orthodox' beliefs/doctrine of 'providential preservation'. Such precision on this discussion about what we know to be true about the 'doctrine' of providential preservation I hope & pray will help the believer to understand what 'providential preservation' really means. The KJV-onlyists have twisted this doctrine/belief to fit their false beliefs that God has 'preserved' His Word into only one English version of the Bible. Some in this 'movement' will further involve others in this most silly-- but divisive-- of doctrinal errors, and when one understands what the Bible says about itself, then one knows the truth about the Bible! The truth about KJV-onlyism is that it can become a 'cult', and even when the truth is revealed and error is exposed, some who still hold to the KJV0 errors will continue on in believing this heresy.
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
Originally posted by Pastor Bob 63:
eth" or "-th" suffix
Used to form the archaic third person singular present indicative of verbs: leadeth, followeth.
Ah! thank you Brother Pastor Bob 63.
I'd forgotten that since i last used Middle English.
 

Pastor_Bob

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by LRL71:
The truth about KJV-onlyism is that it can become a 'cult', and even when the truth is revealed and error is exposed, some who still hold to the KJV0 errors will continue on in believing this heresy.
LRL71,

Of course you realize these same words could be used by the KJVO's to describe your position as well.

I want to thank you for this topic. You are obviously an educated man. I appreciate your spirit throughout this debate. We will disagree in this area I'm sure for a long time but there is one thing I would ask that you do for me.

Check out the great soul-winners of the past few centuries; 1700 - 2000 and see which Bible they used. I think you'll find that there is a remarkable connection to "bearing much fruit" with the "Old Black Book" KJV.

Again, nice discussing this issue with you.
God Bless You,
Pastor Bob
 

LRL71

New Member
Originally posted by Pastor Bob 63:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LRL71:
The truth about KJV-onlyism is that it can become a 'cult', and even when the truth is revealed and error is exposed, some who still hold to the KJV0 errors will continue on in believing this heresy.
LRL71,

Of course you realize these same words could be used by the KJVO's to describe your position as well.

I want to thank you for this topic. You are obviously an educated man. I appreciate your spirit throughout this debate. We will disagree in this area I'm sure for a long time but there is one thing I would ask that you do for me.

Check out the great soul-winners of the past few centuries; 1700 - 2000 and see which Bible they used. I think you'll find that there is a remarkable connection to "bearing much fruit" with the "Old Black Book" KJV.

Again, nice discussing this issue with you.
God Bless You,
Pastor Bob
</font>[/QUOTE]Pastor Bob,

This statement does not 'prove' that using the KJV (or, *only* using the KJV) saves peoples' souls nor should using the argument from experience about great soul-winners of the past be something to prove your point. Only God is the great soul-winner, and He always returns something for preaching His Word-- He never returns anything void. My pastor uses the NIV and sees God using that Bible to see people come to know Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. Charles H. Spurgeon, one of my favorite *Calvinist* preachers of the Word used the RV 1881, and John R. Rice also quoted the RV in many pamphlets *favorably*. I could name other 'great soul-winners' from the recent past who do not use the KJV and yet God has given His ministry through these godly men a great blessing. God has honored His Word and through the use of the modern versions and He will not allow His Word to return void. The KJV has been around for almost 400 years, and it will continue to be around to be a blessing. The NIV/NASB has been around for only 30 years, but I believe (and know!) that God is also using this great Bible for His Sovereign purpose.

I could prove absurdity by being absurd in saying that I am NIV-only or NASB-only, and then turn around to use the same arguments you use to 'prove' that the KJV is the "only Word of God". I could argue that the Jehovah Witnesses also regard *only* the KJV to be an authority (in addition to their perverted translation) and make an argument of guilt-by-association. Obviously, I could go on ad infinitem 'railing' the KJV on its 'misgivings', but this is more than being unfair. I cannot understand that you have not seen the errors of KJV-onlyism; I can safely say that you have been 'blissfully ignorant' of the facts against KJV-onlyism.

[ September 15, 2002, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: LRL71 ]
 

ChristianCynic

<img src=/cc2.jpg>
Originally posted by Mrs, KJV:
Doubt about the Word of God, makes us loss trust in God. And we can not grow into mature meat eating christians.
I don't care to grow into mature meat by eating Christians :D .
 

DocCas

New Member
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I do note "follows" from the NIV is
in my dictionary; "followeth" from the KJV
is not in my dictionary.
Followeth is the third person form of follow. Followest would be second person. And again, what is your point?
 

Pastor_Bob

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by LRL71:
I can safely say that you have been 'blissfully ignorant' of the facts against KJV-onlyism.
Can you show me any proof, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that God preserved His Word in the Modern English Versions? If you can prove to me that the MV's are, without question, the infallible, preserved Word of God, then I'll give an ear to your opinions. Until then, I'll continue using the KJV because I know that it is the Word of God. Those that use the MV's will concede that the KJV is the Word of God. Until there is unquestionable proof otherwise, I'll continue to use it.
 

try hard

New Member
Pastor Bob, Can you show me any proof, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that God preserved His Word in the KJV? Until that time, I will continue to use my NKJV, NASB, and NIV: The infalliable, perserved word of God.
 

LRL71

New Member
Originally posted by Tri Hard:
Pastor Bob, Can you show me any proof, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that God preserved His Word in the KJV? Until that time, I will continue to use my NKJV, NASB, and NIV: The infallible, preserved Word of God.
Tri Hard!
You beat me to the punch! That was exactly my reply! Thanks for the help.......

God never preserved His Word *into* any Bible version-- whether KJV, NIV, NASB, etc....
If we applied 'preservation' as KJV-onlyists have, then ask which KJV? If we applied 'preservation' as DocCas has defined(and basically myself, although I don't think it is a doctrine), then God has preserved His Word to us through the many extant Hebrew & Greek manuscripts in that we have not lost any of what He wrote in the originals. Either way, God does not 'preserve' His Word *into* any Bible version in any language; this is the doublespeak that KJVO's use to 'justify' their position in that God only preserved His Word *into* the KJV. Where does God say that from the Bible? Perhaps there is some extant manuscript that says, "I hath preserved My Word into the King James Version only", but no, unfortunately, there isn't. When KJVO's *twist* and *inject* their heretical beliefs into the 'biblical' doctrines/beliefs of preservation, then we get KJV-onlyism-- a heretical view of Bibliology.

Again, Pastor Bob 63, where does God say that He specifically "preserves" His Word, and more precisely, where does He say that He will "preserve" it INTO the King James Version of the Bible ONLY? Do you have some special revelation from God, or should we concede that the charismaniacs are right about God still speaking through revelations and tongues today? You cannot honestly answer this question without having your head examined. Your question is valid, in a sense, to ask me if I can 'prove' that God preserved His Word *into* any of the modern versions. I would have to answer "no" to all of them. Then you will say, "aha!"-- then God didn't 'preserve' or 'inspire' His Word into the modern versions! But wait, you will then say that God preserved His Word *only* into the KJV, right? Well, how do you propose that? The Bible, whether KJV or not, does not say that God preserves His Word *into* any version or from any language. See, I am honest enough to know what my Bible says about God's work in preservation of the Bible text. No, He did not preserve it into the KJV, NIV, NASB, or in Swahili! The 'doctrine' (or, teaching) of biblical preservation of the Bible text does not say that God preserves His Word into versions, languages, or manuscripts. He 'preserves' His Word by not allowing any of it to disappear from man-- period. I *know* that this is consistent with the Historic Christian faith passed down through the ages, and the heresies and false teachings of KJV-onlyism will go down to its inevitable destruction, even to the 'trash heap' where they falsely report that Sinaiticus came from! Surely, the Word of the Lord stands forever, but even these verses have been hijacked by KJV-onlyists to serve their perverted purposes. No, God did not preserve His Word into the Modern Versions, but I know that the NIV, NASB, NKJV, and even the venerable KJV has been carefully translated from their respective manuscripts in Hebrew and Greek, and are the very Word of God-- in English. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we have all of what God wrote from the originals (despite the fact that the TR-- and the KJV-- had many 'added' verses to it, like 1 John 5:7-8).

Whew! This came from a.....
Independent, Fundamental, Sovereign Grace, Missionary, Pre-Mill/Pre-Trib, NIV/NASB preaching
thumbs.gif
, Calvinist, Predestined by the free will of God's foreknowledge and election, and a sinner saved *only* by the Grace of God through Jesus Christ...... BAPTIST!


Thanks for reading!

[ September 15, 2002, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: LRL71 ]
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
Originally posted by Pastor Bob 63:
Can you show me any proof, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that God preserved His Word in the Modern English Versions?
Let me do just that after you tell me why the
KJV1611, perfect in every way,
had to have the spelling corrected
in the 18th century.
 

Pastor_Bob

Well-Known Member
Sorry Brothers,

That's not good enough. If you want to change my mind and belittle my beliefs, your going to have to come up with something solid. The burden of proof is still on you. You haven't proved to me that my Bible is not the preserved Word of God and you haven't proved to me that yours is.

I'm still KJVO (Non-Ruckman, non-KJVO=salvation, non-my way or the highway).
 

LRL71

New Member
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Bob 63:
Can you show me any proof, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that God preserved His Word in the Modern English Versions?
Let me do just that after you tell me why the
KJV1611, perfect in every way,
had to have the spelling corrected
in the 18th century.
</font>[/QUOTE]I am laughing so hard right now!
laugh.gif
 
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