What is the Gift of Righteousness ?

[kyredneck]

....I'll be honest, KYR, I don't see a contradiction ....

Yea, I know, you have the same shallow hasty approach to scripture as every other free willer I've ever met. The two scriptural inference are in stark contradiction to one another; the one is in reference to works done to earn merit, the other is works done 'by nature' from a regenerate, circumcised heart that has the 'law written upon it':

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

There's no mention of faith here, in fact they weren't hearers as you like to wear out 'faith cometh by hearing', they had a supernatural act performed within them that 'hearing' has absolutely zilch to do with.

While we're in Ro 2:

6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:

How does this jibe with your insistence of 'going to heaven' by faith alone?

 

[savedbymercy]

pt

Okay, now you have blatantly changed the wording of the scripture. Is it a matter of the law or a work of the law?

Is it a Car or a Automobile ? They are the same. A doing of the Law is a Work, something done. Its crystal clear that Faith is something done in Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The word work ergon strongs 2041 means:


I.business, employment, that which any one is occupied

A.that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking



II.any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind


III.an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

So your comment is invalid !

 

[PreachTony]

Yea, I know, you have the same shallow hasty approach to scripture as every other free willer I've ever met. The two scriptural inference are in stark contradiction to one another; the one is in reference to works done to earn merit, the other is works done 'by nature' from a regenerate, circumcised heart that has the 'law written upon it'

Did you even bother to read the response that I wrote, KYR, or did you just see the first line and assume that my belief in free-will somehow lessens the worth of my interpretation versus yours? It's incredibly obvious that you and I share starkly contrasted views on the scripture. I almost believe they are so starkly contrasted that it would hinder us from worshiping together, though I pray it wouldn't.

I gave you an in-depth response to the verses you provided, indicating my interpretation of the scripture. You, as I noted earlier, cherry-picked one line from my comment and seemingly attempted to ridicule my interpretation, calling me hasty and shallow. Thank you.

You, and others holding to similar interpretations, have removed man's responsibility in salvation, making man a totally passive bystander. This stance, to me, is in opposition to the teachings of the Bible. To you, I'm sure, my beliefs are in opposition. At this point I don't know how we overcome this difference.

 

[Getting it Right]

Yes he can, faith is a work, it's our responsibility to exercise it.

Ah, the blinders of 'sola fide'!

Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2:24

Has anyone noticed that the Book of James was written to the 12 Tribes of Israel?

:love2:

 

[savedbymercy]

A Righteous world in 2 Cor 5:19 !

The World in 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This world is a world that God imputes Righteousness unto ! Now how do we know this for sure ? Its because scripture interprets scripture in this matter. Now understand something plainly stated of this world, which is that God does not impute sin unto it, which speaks of the Gospel Doctrine of Non Imputation; Now there is another scripture that speaks of Non Imputation and accompanying it is forgiveness of sins Ps 32:1-2

1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Note: That would imply as well that the World of 2 Cor 5:19 is a forgiven world !

Now for my main point and subject, this Non Imputation of sin entails automatically the Imputation of Righteousness, this is clear from the fact when Paul quotes David in this matter, he adds with Non Imputation the Imputation of Righteousness as observed here Rom 4:6-8

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Hence Paul makes it clear that accompanying Non Imputation of sin is the Imputation of Righteousness without works, which does enhance the blessedness of the One or Ones who have Non Imputation of sin, which would include that Word of 2 Cor 5:19 ! So the World of 2 Cor 5:19 is a Righteous World before God with no sin charged to it !

 

[Don]

So if the world has been reconciled, sin has not been imputed, and righteousness has been imputed unto the world -- everyone has a place in Heaven with God. Do I understand correctly?

 

[savedbymercy]

So if the world has been reconciled, sin has not been imputed, and righteousness has been imputed unto the world -- everyone has a place in Heaven with God. Do I understand correctly?

Did you read post 25 ? If you have not, please read it and review my points made with me. Thanks !

 

[Don]

Did you read post 25 ? If you have not, please read it and review my points made with me. Thanks !

Dude, seriously. Not only did I read it, I summarized it and asked if I had correctly summarized it. So -- did I?

 

[savedbymercy]

In my post and in 2 Cor 5:19 it's never stated that everyone's sins were not imputed, but the World ! The two are not the same !

 

[Don]

In my post and in 2 Cor 5:19 it's never stated that everyone's sins were not imputed, but the World ! The two are not the same !

You must understand my confusion. In your explanation of non-imputation of sin to the world, you referenced Psalm 32:2 and linked your discussion of the "world" to "man."

Since you made that connection, when you wrote of imputation of righteousness, the natural conclusion was that you meant imputation of righteousness to the "world" and to "man."

So if they're not the same, please clarify further the difference, that we may better understand what you're trying to say.

 

[JamesL]

Yea, I know, you have the same shallow hasty approach to scripture as every other free willer I've ever met. The two scriptural inference are in stark contradiction to one another; the one is in reference to works done to earn merit, the other is works done 'by nature' from a regenerate, circumcised heart that has the 'law written upon it':

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

There's no mention of faith here, in fact they weren't hearers as you like to wear out 'faith cometh by hearing', they had a supernatural act performed within them that 'hearing' has absolutely zilch to do with.

While we're in Ro 2:

6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:

How does this jibe with your insistence of 'going to heaven' by faith alone?

Good stuff. This "eternal life" mentioned by Paul is for those who are already "going to heaven"

Justified in receiving glory and honor, which is determined by the regenerated man's work


Too many are in a theological brain lock, thinking "justified" has a single theological definition, thinking "saved" has a single theological definition, thinking "eternal life" has a single theological definition, and so on.

 

[kyredneck]

To me, easily explained by Eph 2:10 - we are saved unto good works, not because of them. This reconciles with James where we read that we show our faith by our works.

Our faith and our works are 'fruits' 'not of ourselves'. The unregenerate 'natural man' is incapable of genuinely bearing any of the fruits of the Spirit. Only the heart 'circumcised not with hands' can perform these 'works'. It is NOT 'your faith' that is the root of these works, it is the 'heart-change that was supernaturally wrought within you that these 'works' spring from.

Did you even bother to read the response that I wrote, KYR, or did you just see the first line and assume that my belief in free-will somehow lessens the worth of my interpretation versus yours? It's incredibly obvious that you and I share starkly contrasted views on the scripture. I almost believe they are so starkly contrasted that it would hinder us from worshiping together, though I pray it wouldn't.

I gave you an in-depth response to the verses you provided, indicating my interpretation of the scripture. You, as I noted earlier, cherry-picked one line from my comment and seemingly attempted to ridicule my interpretation, calling me hasty and shallow. Thank you.

You, and others holding to similar interpretations, have removed man's responsibility in salvation, making man a totally passive bystander. This stance, to me, is in opposition to the teachings of the Bible. To you, I'm sure, my beliefs are in opposition. At this point I don't know how we overcome this difference.

My apologies to you PT if I offended you with my lack of couth, it is often a fault of mine.

There is a 'redundancy' of topics or themes (probably about 25 or so) that I see that keeps occurring in the threads on the BB, and I can make the mistake of jumping to what I think should be the conclusion of the matter without adequately building the case (which 99.99999% of the time will do no good anyway because most are firmly ensconced within their own presuppositions).

28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jn 6

Tell me how our faith is NOT a work.

 

[savedbymercy]

You must understand my confusion. In your explanation of non-imputation of sin to the world, you referenced Psalm 32:2 and linked your discussion of the "world" to "man."

Since you made that connection, when you wrote of imputation of righteousness, the natural conclusion was that you meant imputation of righteousness to the "world" and to "man."

So if they're not the same, please clarify further the difference, that we may better understand what you're trying to say.

If you dont understand the concept of non imputation that I showed forth, then the comment is just over your head !

The Point is Non Imputation of either an individual or of a world of individuals. So your problem is that these matters are over your head, maybe you should not participate. Now are you ready to review the points I made with me ? If you cant understand them, its a waste of time, its to advanced for you !

Now you said:

So if the world has been reconciled, sin has not been imputed, and righteousness has been imputed unto the world -- everyone has a place in Heaven with God. Do I understand correctly?

Where is that statement in anything I have stated ?

 

[Don]

Where is that statement in anything I have stated ?

In your last statement:

So the World of 2 Cor 5:19 is a Righteous World before God with no sin charged to it !

By all means, please continue with your message.

 

[kyredneck]

...Too many are in a theological brain lock, thinking "justified" has a single theological definition, thinking "saved" has a single theological definition, thinking "eternal life" has a single theological definition, and so on.

Good stuff! I heartily agree with all three examples you've given, and there are many other theological terms that have dual or even multiple aspects. Our Bible is a multi-faceted gem! It has many 'thread topics' or spokes that all lead to the center hub which is Christ. We could study it for fifty lifetimes and hardly scratch the surface; I'm with those that hold the opinion that we will continue to look into these things and be in awe even in the afterlife.

 

[Yeshua1]

Good stuff! I heartily agree with all three examples you've given, and there are many other theological terms that have dual or even multiple aspects. Our Bible is a multi-faceted gem! It has many 'thread topics' or spokes that all lead to the center hub which is Christ. We could study it for fifty lifetimes and hardly scratch the surface; I'm with those that hold the opinion that we will continue to look into these things and be in awe even in the afterlife.

The truth is thast in the NT especially though, only those who have received jesus thru faith have experienced any of those things!

 

[PreachTony]

My apologies to you PT if I offended you with my lack of couth, it is often a fault of mine.

There is a 'redundancy' of topics or themes (probably about 25 or so) that I see that keeps occurring in the threads on the BB, and I can make the mistake of jumping to what I think should be the conclusion of the matter without adequately building the case (which 99.99999% of the time will do no good anyway because most are firmly ensconced within their own presuppositions).

28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jn 6

Tell me how our faith is NOT a work.

KYR - I understand, as I find myself doing the same thing as well. You have to understand, too, that your frustration with my being "firmly ensconced" in my presuppositions is equal to my frustration with you for same thing. As I wrote earlier, I don't know that we could ever work past the point of division and difference, as we both believe firmly that our point of view is backed by scripture.

To the point JamesL made, I have to say that, if we're going to assign differing definitions to "eternal life" and "saved," then we might as well look to assign more then one definition to "work," also. Some people here are convinced that any action by any person is equivalent to work. So if we are saved "not by works," then we can encounter a potential contradiction, as the Bible does say that anyone who calls on God will be saved, yet calling on God would be considered a "work" by these people. I have always seen "works" in Ephesians 2 as referring more to the works we do for the Lord, rather than merely calling on God, or praying, or, as some contend, having faith.

I hope you all had a Merry Christmas.

 

[JamesL]

To the point JamesL made, I have to say that, if we're going to assign differing definitions to "eternal life" and "saved," then we might as well look to assign more then one definition to "work," also. Some people here are convinced that any action by any person is equivalent to work. So if we are saved "not by works," then we can encounter a potential contradiction, as the Bible does say that anyone who calls on God will be saved, yet calling on God would be considered a "work" by these people.

I hope you all had a Merry Christmas.

Calling upon the Name of the Lord is absolutely a work.

However, this "will be saved" is not the same "saved" as the "have been saved" of Ephesians 2. Different aspects of salvation in view.

On the one hand, conversion, we are saved by grace through faith - apart from works.

But calling upon the Name of the Lord is not a prayer. It is a confession before men that Jesus is Lord. And that salvation is eschatological. If you confess Me before men....whoever endures to the end "shall be saved"....if we endure, we will reign with Him. Joint heirs if we suffer with Him. Not ashamed at His appearing. All eschatological promises (or warnings).

Hope your Christmas was great as well

 

[savedbymercy]

The gift must be received, it can be rejected you know, by unbelief.

This statement is invalid and has no biblical basis ! In fact they that Christ died for are made righteous by His obedience Rom 5:19 and Reconciled to God while they're enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10, their unbelief does not prevent that !

 

[Don]

This statement is invalid and has no biblical basis ! In fact they that Christ died for are made righteous by His obedience Rom 5:19 and Reconciled to God while they're enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10, their unbelief does not prevent that !

So -- does *everyone* get to go to heaven? Or only those that God chooses?