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What is the Gift of Righteousness ?
- Thread starter savedbymercy
- Start date
In the first century faith was a spiritual gift.Faith is a work, something man does, and it is a work of the Law Matt 23:23 !
1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
--Paul mentions the "gift of faith" as a spiritual gift.
It is also one of the fruits of the Spirit.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
God would never give an unregenerate person a spiritual gift or the fruit of the Spirit, neither of which are works.
The verse that you cling to is taken out of context. You redefine the word according to your own pre-conceived ideas. I have defined it for you with the Scriptures.
Again, the Scriptures declare that it cannot be a work for it is opposed to works.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--Paul sets faith and works in opposition to each other.
If it is of works it cannot be of faith; if it is of faith it cannot be of works.
savedbymercy
New Member
Faith is a work, something man does, and it is a work of the Law Matt 23:23 ! You're promoting salvation by works by what a person does !In the first century faith was a spiritual gift.
1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
--Paul mentions the "gift of faith" as a spiritual gift.
It is also one of the fruits of the Spirit.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
God would never give an unregenerate person a spiritual gift or the fruit of the Spirit, neither of which are works.
The verse that you cling to is taken out of context. You redefine the word according to your own pre-conceived ideas. I have defined it for you with the Scriptures.
Again, the Scriptures declare that it cannot be a work for it is opposed to works.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--Paul sets faith and works in opposition to each other.
If it is of works it cannot be of faith; if it is of faith it cannot be of works.
savedbymercy
New Member
There is not one scripture that says that Faith is not a work because it is a work ! It's a work of the mind !
Only in your mind, but not in the mind of God!There is not one scripture that says that Faith is not a work because it is a work ! It's a work of the mind !
savedbymercy
New Member
Talk is cheap, produce the scripture that says Faith is not a work !Only in your mind, but not in the mind of God!
Many have been produced; but you reject them all, because you to prefer to believe your own private interpretation.Talk is cheap, produce the scripture that says Faith is not a work !
There are over 200 references that say we must have faith; but we only need Romans 4 to show you your error. Whenever faith and works are contrasted in the same place, faith is no longer a work.
It is your understanding of faith that has caused your error. Because you have latched on to a comment yo those that lacked faith (Matt 23), you have misunderstood the very nature of faith itself. The moment we decide that individual faith is a work, we make faith null and void.
Faith is not an action, not even one of the mind. It is a "resting." For faith is not "active"; I do not continually, actively exercise belief in Christ. Rather, faith is passive: I rest from working on believing, because true belief, true faith, is resting on His labor, His work.
I do not consider or think about the sun coming up in the east each morning. I can do nothing about it. No activity or work on my part will make any difference. Just as I do not actively think about the sun coming up each morning in the east, I do not think about being saved each day, each moment. My salvation is based on Him, what He has done. No work or activity on my part has any effect on that fact. I have rested my assurance on His finished work on the cross.
Hebrews 11 tells us that faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Romans 4:5 says that if I work not, but (see the contrast word?) believe, my faith is counted as righteousness.
My faith is not an "active" believing; it is a "resting" on the assurance of the promise. And since resting is the opposite of working, faith is no more a work than our simple belief that the sun will rise tomorrow morning.
To continue with this misunderstanding that faith is a work is to deny scripture, and is an attempt to cause others to doubt their own salvation.
(Note: I wish I could say that the above was my own work, but it was my own understanding derived from several different sources (both calvinistic and ainian). I didn't keep record of each of them, but will do so if requested.)
Many have been produced; but you reject them all, because you to prefer to believe your own private interpretation.Talk is cheap, produce the scripture that says Faith is not a work !
There are over 200 references that say we must have faith; but we only need Romans 4 to show you your error. Whenever faith and works are contrasted in the same place, faith is no longer a work.
It is your understanding of faith that has caused your error. Because you have latched on to a comment to those that lacked faith (Matt 23), you have misunderstood the very nature of faith itself. The moment we decide that individual faith is a work, we make faith null and void.
Faith is not an action, not even one of the mind. It is a "resting." For faith is not "active"; I do not continually, actively exercise belief in Christ. Rather, faith is passive: I rest from working on believing, because true belief, true faith, is resting on His labor, His work.
I do not consider or think about the sun coming up in the east each morning. I can do nothing about it. No activity or work on my part will make any difference. Just as I do not actively think about the sun coming up each morning in the east, I do not think about being saved each day, each moment. My salvation is based on Him, what He has done. No work or activity on my part has any effect on that fact. I have rested my assurance on His finished work on the cross.
Hebrews 11 tells us that faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen. Romans 4:5 says that if I don't work, but (see the contrast word?) believe, then my faith is counted for righteousness. My faith is no more a work than our simple belief that the sun will rise tomorrow morning.
To continue with this misunderstanding that faith is a work is to deny scripture, and is an attempt to cause others to doubt their own salvation.
(Note: I wish I could say that the above was my own work, but it was my own understanding derived from several different sources (both calvinistic and arminian). I didn't keep record of each of them, but will do so if requested.)
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Talk is cheap, produce the scripture that says Faith is not a work !
God grants faith as His gift towards the elect, so how can that be seen as us doing a work, as its the work of God in us producing saving faith then?
savedbymercy
New Member
God grants faith as His gift towards the elect, so how can that be seen as us doing a work, as its the work of God in us producing saving faith then?
Now you are deceitful, I have already explained how Faith is a Work several times, Its a Work of the Law Matt 23:23 and went into detail. Now obviously you have not read my recent posts about Faith being the Work and Gift of God, so please read them and get it straight as to what I am testifying to, because you sound confused and you are misrepresenting what I have stated. Read the following posts and then be prepared to review with me exactly what I stated to show that you understood them!
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2183930#post2183930 Posts 144-146 !
PreachTony
Active Member
...so please read them and get it straight as to what I am testifying to, because you sound confused and you are misrepresenting what I have stated. Read the following posts and then be prepared to review with me exactly what I stated to show that you understood them!
Why would he do that? We've all responded to you on many occasions, often with scripture and direct quotes to your posts, and each time you accuse us of evading you. You then throw out 'YES or NO" questions that completely cheapen the debate, as answering one way affirms your twisted theology and answering in the opposite grants you ground to further mock and devalue those posting against you.
To top it all off, you seem to have this opinion that we should be going over your posts point by point by point, dissecting each and every word, but you don't have to do the same with us. You've adopted this sickening doctrine that flat-out ignores certain words and bypasses context in order to fit your preconceived ideas, and you act like those of us holding to scripture and long established scriptural tradition are the ones who are wrong.
Let's look at a simple translation of the verse and see.Now you are deceitful, I have already explained how Faith is a Work several times, Its a Work of the Law Matt 23:23 and went into detail. Now obviously you have not read my recent posts about Faith being the Work and Gift of God, so please read them and get it straight as to what I am testifying to, because you sound confused and you are misrepresenting what I have stated. Read the following posts and then be prepared to review with me exactly what I stated to show that you understood them!
Here is Darby's translation (though essentially the same as the KJV).
Matthew 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for ye pay tithes of mint and anise and cummin, and ye have left aside the weightier matters of the law, judgment and mercy and faith: these ye ought to have done and not have left those aside.
The verse is divided into two parts. Check A.T. Robertson for this critique.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for ye pay tithes of mint and anise and cummin, and ye have left aside the weightier matters of the law,
--He quotes from the law. He speaks of tithing here which is a part of the Jewish law, and describes how particular they were in tithing. They tithed absolutely everything. They kept the law right down to the minute details.
Now moving on from the law (that is, the works of the law), he addresses "greater things."
A.T. Robertson says:
These are the intangibles. They are not "works" as such. They are characteristics which are to be found in people that are right with God. If you look at them carefully they are attributes of God. God is just; God is merciful; God is faithful. The Pharisees needed to be more like God. This are the more important things, the things that are "weightier" or more important.Jesus does not condemn tithing. What he does condemn is doing it to the neglect of the weightier matters (ta barutera). The Pharisees were externalists;
ye have left aside the weightier matters of the law, judgment and mercy and faith: these ye ought to have done and not have left those aside.
To exercise faith is not the same as "to do faith." One doesn't DO faith. It is not a work. Will you pay me for my faith? Of course not. It is not something that I can do? It is not a work.
savedbymercy
New Member
Evasion, Faith is a work of the Law, something that Jesus said that ought to have been done Matt 23:23 !Let's look at a simple translation of the verse and see.
Here is Darby's translation (though essentially the same as the KJV).
Matthew 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for ye pay tithes of mint and anise and cummin, and ye have left aside the weightier matters of the law, judgment and mercy and faith: these ye ought to have done and not have left those aside.
The verse is divided into two parts. Check A.T. Robertson for this critique.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for ye pay tithes of mint and anise and cummin, and ye have left aside the weightier matters of the law,
--He quotes from the law. He speaks of tithing here which is a part of the Jewish law, and describes how particular they were in tithing. They tithed absolutely everything. They kept the law right down to the minute details.
Now moving on from the law (that is, the works of the law), he addresses "greater things."
A.T. Robertson says:
These are the intangibles. They are not "works" as such. They are characteristics which are to be found in people that are right with God. If you look at them carefully they are attributes of God. God is just; God is merciful; God is faithful. The Pharisees needed to be more like God. This are the more important things, the things that are "weightier" or more important.
ye have left aside the weightier matters of the law, judgment and mercy and faith: these ye ought to have done and not have left those aside.
To exercise faith is not the same as "to do faith." One doesn't DO faith. It is not a work. Will you pay me for my faith? Of course not. It is not something that I can do? It is not a work.
PreachTony
Active Member
Evasion, Faith is a work of the Law, something that Jesus said that ought to have been done Matt 23:23 !
Wow, you are offered a very concise and clear explanation of an opposing point of view and your immediate response is call out "Evasion!" Simply amazing.
Just so you know, SBM, by saying Faith is a work, you are creating a contradiction within the scripture. I've explained that one to you several times over, but you wouldn't hear it.
Evasion--a word that now means: ignorance.Evasion, Faith is a work of the Law, something that Jesus said that ought to have been done Matt 23:23 !
savedbymercy
New Member
Appealing to the paraphrasing bibles is not going to help you at all ! Faith is a work of the Law, if you or anyone else say that God Justified you or Saved you because of your Faith / Believing you are in essence saying God Justified me because I done the Law, What I ought to have done !Evasion--a word that now means: ignorance.
Believing has nothing to do with the law.Appealing to the paraphrasing bibles is not going to help you at all ! Faith is a work of the Law, if you or anyone else say that God Justified you or Saved you because of your Faith / Believing you are in essence saying God Justified me because I done the Law, What I ought to have done !
Faith and works are opposed to each other. I demonstrated that to you through Romans 4:3-5.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
--When one does no work but only believes he is the one that is justified.
Therefore faith is not a work. This is clear from this scripture.
I demonstrated that your interpretation of your proof text, Mat.23:23 is wrong. Faith is not a work. It is intangible. It is an attribute of God, and therefore a characteristic of man that he needs to exercise. I cannot DO faith. It is not a work.
Therefore being justified by faith (one's own faith) we have peace with God.
--Obviously, faith is not a work.
For by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works.
--Clearly, faith is not a work.
The scriptures are against you. You apparently don't believe them.
savedbymercy
New Member
There's no scripture that says believing is not a work, but there is a scripture that says believing/ Faith is a work of the Law that ought to be done Matt 23:23 !Believing has nothing to do with the law.
Faith and works are opposed to each other. I demonstrated that to you through Romans 4:3-5.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
--When one does no work but only believes he is the one that is justified.
Therefore faith is not a work. This is clear from this scripture.
I demonstrated that your interpretation of your proof text, Mat.23:23 is wrong. Faith is not a work. It is intangible. It is an attribute of God, and therefore a characteristic of man that he needs to exercise. I cannot DO faith. It is not a work.
Therefore being justified by faith (one's own faith) we have peace with God.
--Obviously, faith is not a work.
For by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works.
--Clearly, faith is not a work.
The scriptures are against you. You apparently don't believe them.
1. All of my scriptures say that faith is not a work.There's no scripture that says believing is not a work, but there is a scripture that says believing/ Faith is a work of the Law that ought to be done Matt 23:23 !
2. You haven't provided one scripture that says faith is a work.
Therefore you are in the wrong with your eisigetical and warped definition.
savedbymercy
New Member
There's not one scripture that you have quoted that says that Faith is not a work !1. All of my scriptures say that faith is not a work.
2. You haven't provided one scripture that says faith is a work.
Therefore you are in the wrong with your eisigetical and warped definition.