Great question, as is the election based upon what God determined to do towards us first, or was it based upon God seeing ans knowing how we would "freely respond" to the Gospel message, His foreknowledge?
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What is the Gospel?
- Thread starter asterisktom
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Van thinks that God discovered something new at that moment in time, as God really did not know what Abraham would do with is own son, and so when God saw it and learned it, then moved
Does this poster believe what the bible says? Did anyone say or suggest salvation is based on what we decide to do, or does scripture say salvation does not depend on the one who wills or runs to be saved, but upon God who calls those of His choosing into His kingdom?
The key issue of our dispute, is whether Abraham or his faith was credited as righteousness. No one is made righteous, except by the blood of the Lamb, He paid the debt owed due to our unrighteousness, and therefore when we are placed into Christ and undergo the washing of regeneration, we are made righteous, blameless, as our sin burden, what God required due to our sin, has been removed, nailed to the cross so to speak.
The gospel presents the opportunity to be reconciled to God, not the inopportunity to alter the foreordained outcome of our lives and the lives of our loved ones.
The Opportunity Gospel is proclaimed with clarity, the Inopportunity Gospel is hidden in doublespeak, misrepresentation and against the person deflections.
Correct! But I think you'll find it's you.
Good. But the question is, do we receive it by grace? Or do we have to contribute to it by "commitment and devotion to Christ"? Those are your words; do you stand by them?
It is indeed unbiblical nonsense, which is why I have said no such thing. But why is our faith not a contribution to our salvation? No one is saved without it. I know; do you?
Romans 4:16. 'Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be made sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all' (c.f. Gal. 3:7). Amen! Why do you think I deny that verse? I believe every word of it. But again, why is faith not a work? I know; do you?
'For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness."' (Rom. 4:3). So why was it accounted to him? Because he had none of his own! He had no "commitment and devotion to Christ; he was the son of a pagan, living in a pagan land. 'Then I took your father Abraham from the other side of the river, led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his descendants and gave him Isaac' (Joshua 24:2-3). Who was it who did all these things for Abraham? It was God. And where were Abraham's "commitment and devotion"? Nowhere to be seen.
Where exactly in the Bible does it say that someone believed and it wasn't credited to him as righteousness? What does the Scripture say? 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved' (Acts 16:31). Where does it say, "so long as you have sufficient "commitment and devotion"? Or "so long as your faith is righteous enough"?
Faith is the medium that unites us to Christ, and still we are in Christ by God's doing. 1 Corinthians 1:30. Yet no one is saved without believing.
Irresistible grace is a glorious truth. No hope without it. God credits our faith for righteousness because we have none of our own to offer Him.
Indeed we may! But 'Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they' (Acts 15:10-11). It is all of grace, and the gospel you are putting forth is 'another Gospel which is no gospel at all.' By saying that God demands works from us such as "commitment and devotion" and "righteousness" (contra Phil. 3:9), you are denying the true Gospel and you need to repent of it and stop it.
TheOneWhoLives
New Member
Abraham’s faith was credited as righteousness back in Genesis 12. He didnt demonstrate his faith by his actions until Genesis 22, years after the fact.
The only way God could have credited Abraham’s faith as righteousness is because of the absolute certainty that Abraham would obey God’s command to sacrifice Isaac.
I know that you have open theist tendencies and are probably going to say that God responded to Abraham by saying, “now I know”. However, if Abraham was really free to choose otherwise, that would have overthrown God’s knowledge of Abraham’s heart back in Genesis 12.
By that logic, I could say that Abraham instead could have responded becoming a mass murderer and God would have said, “woopsies, NOW I KNOW that I made a mistake, his heart isn’t as righteous as I thought it was”. No, I find that reasoning to be absolute hogwash.
Hogwash, I say! Poppycock! Flapdoodle!
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Tenchi
Member
It's going beyond Scripture to say God is able to "read" our thoughts?
Psalm 139:1-4
1 O LORD, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar.
3 You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
Psalm 139:23-24
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me and know my anxious thoughts;
24 And see if there be any hurtful way in me, And lead me in the everlasting way.
1 Samuel 16:7
7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
As is indicated in the Psalm above, God "knowing our heart," entails His knowing our thoughts. As I understand it, my "heart" (not the physical organ) is the core of my "inner man," the ultimate "seat" of all my desires, attitudes and decision-making, encompassing my mind, will, emotions and spirit. For God to know my "heart," then, necessarily involves Him knowing my thoughts. In fact, as far as I can see, without thought, my "heart" doesn't - and can't - exist.
Phil. 1:29: "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"
Two things were given to the saints here: Faith and suffering. Unless you are going to argue that there is somehow a difference between believing and faith. Or that their situation was somehow special and different for other Christians throughout the ages.
John 1:12-13: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
The action in the last verse preceded the first. The phrase "who were (past tense) born ... of God" proves this. You have someone first believing ("the will of flesh ... the will of man") and then becoming a child of God. No. Verse 13 says just the opposite.
His open Theism opens up a can of worms, as what if Judas had decided not to be the betrayer of Jesus and not fulfill prophecy. would God then be forced to pivot to have Peter being one doing thast instead?
So the Lord cannot even hear silent prayers made by us in our minds alone?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
What God gave them was the grace to strengthen their faith when under trial.
Paul is writing to believers that were suffering for their faith to encourage them.
As he wrote in
Php 1:27 Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Php 1:28 in no way alarmed by your opponents—which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God.
So now you are going to edit the word of God!
Man cannot believe something that he has not heard of. Man is saved by God in response to the man trusting in Christ Jesus not before.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Gal 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
You have come to the wrong understanding because you have misunderstood the text
Joh_1:13 who were born
not of blood {through having Christian parents}
nor of the will of the flesh {can not save themselves}
nor of the will of man {no man can save another person}
but of God. {only God can save}
This has nothing to do with the topic. I said God knows our hearts and you agree.
The key issue of our dispute, is whether Abraham or his faith was credited as righteousness. No one is made righteous, except by the blood of the Lamb, He paid the debt owed due to our unrighteousness, and therefore when we are placed into Christ and undergo the washing of regeneration, we are made righteous, blameless, as our sin burden, what God required due to our sin, has been removed, nailed to the cross so to speak.
The Biblical Gospel offers the opportunity to be reconciled to God, rather than the false gospel that claims there is nothing an individual can do to alter the foreordained outcome of his or her life.
We are told to have a faith like Abraham's which was credited as righteousness. Our faith in Christ as Lord and Savior requires more than trusting in Christ's promises, it requires our full commitment and devotion to Christ as our Lord, such that we are willing to follow Christ no matter the cost.
The gospel is not fire insurance which you buy and put in your back pocket.
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On and on the posters keep repeating the same false charges, the same efforts to change the subject, the same efforts to deny the biblical gospel.
But why is our faith not a contribution to our salvation? No one is saved without it. I know; do you?
How many times have I answered this question? Dozens to be sure. Here it is again, Romans 9:16, salvation does not depend on the person who wills to be saved, or runs (does things) to be saved, such as trusting in Christ. But salvation does depend on the One who calls, transfers the person into Christ's spiritual kingdom. Calvinists say God does this based on nothing, scripture says God does this one the basis of Him crediting our faith, as worthless as it may be, as righteousness.
But why is our faith not a contribution to our salvation? No one is saved without it. I know; do you?
How many times have I answered this question? Dozens to be sure. Here it is again, Romans 9:16, salvation does not depend on the person who wills to be saved, or runs (does things) to be saved, such as trusting in Christ. But salvation does depend on the One who calls, transfers the person into Christ's spiritual kingdom. Calvinists say God does this based on nothing, scripture says God does this one the basis of Him crediting our faith, as worthless as it may be, as righteousness.
No, what I'm going to do is ignore you again. I showed you the plain scripture. Not wasting any more time on discussing this with you.
Unfortunately, you are the one who is wriggling on a hook and attempting to change the subject in an effort to deny the Biblical Gospel.
Actually, never, as I shall show you.
Firstly, our faith is never described in the Bible as worthless. Secondly, you have carefully omitted part of Romans 9:16. 'So then, it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, BUT OF GOD WHO SHOWS MERCY.' And no Calvinist says this mercy is "based on nothing" as you falsely state. It is based on love. Deut. 7:7. 'The LORD did not set His love upon you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the smallest of all peoples; BUT BECAUSE THE LORD LOVES YOU, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers [e.g. Gen. 12:3c; 26:4c; 28:14c], the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you......' Yes, of course God reckons our faith as righteousness, but He does that because of His love to His chosen people who have no righteousness to offer, not because of whatever we may think we can do for him, which is what you imagine:
No! "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you...." (Matt. 7:22-23). He opposes the proud - those who think they have something to offer Him (1 Peter 5:5). But He also says, "The one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out" (John 6:37). We come to Him with absolutely nothing to offer, relying on nothing else but His free, electing love and His blood shed upon the cross, and He will not cast us out. Our changed life and our good deeds will come later, through the leading of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 2:10), but at the point of salvation, we have NOTHING that God would want, as even the apostle Paul admits (1 Tim. 1:13-14). It's ALL of grace and none of us.
'Not the labour of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law's demands.
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could My tears for ever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and thou alone.
Nothing in my hand I bring;
Simply to Thy cross I cling.
Naked, come to Thee for dress,
Helpless, look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Saviour, or I die!' [Augustus Toplady]
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Your reaction is just like the little boy that does not like losing the game so stamps his feet and goes home.
You can ignore me but you should not ignore the truth.
Your view is shown to be illogical by a simple reading of the text.
Tenchi
Member
??? I have no idea how you've come to ask this question in response to what I wrote.