And I don't. We are at an impasse.
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What is the hold?
- Thread starter steaver
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And I don't. We are at an impasse.
How did Jesus come out? Did an angel perform a C-section?
Honestly, the allegory you are sharing is one of the weirdest one's I have ever heard.
Was Aarons staff found in Mary's womb along with the tablets of the 10 commandments? How far do you really want to push this fantasy about the Ark?
Infant baptism. Not found in the Bible. Priests in the church. Not found in the Bible. Purgatory. Not found in the Bible. Mary magically becoming the Ark of the Covenant. Not found in the Bible.
We're not at an impasse. We're at a point where you can't give up fairy tale stories passed on as being equal with God's word.
Oh come on. Tell me about how the Holy Spirit impregnated a Jewish Virgin? How could such a thing happen? Really now, that is as an unbelievable event as any thing I have said.
Of course it's an act of God that has no scientific explanation. This is why it is a miracle.
Your allegory about Mary as the Ark of the Covenant is just a weird tale.
No. You just reject the Universal Christian Church and what it teaches about it all, a teaching that went on for a far longer time before your sect even reared it's head. We believe it as do our Eastern Orthodox brothers and that is all that matters.
No, it is a well thought out idea by theologians of the Church. It is speculation, a distinct possibility. When it comes to God, the possibilities are endless.
No, I reject the teachings from the church at Rome that have no biblical basis.
Your giving license to every and any looney idea that comes into a human beings head and calling it legitimate. Have some discernment.
So when the Son of God was with the Father before the creation of the world, you believe that He did not know ALL things eternal?
If He wasn't Omnipresent, how did He see Nathanael under the fig tree?
As the Second Person of the Trinity He is omnipresent. As The Incarnatiin He was not. That much is obvious surely: He didn't appear in every single location in the world!
He was not while upon the earth,m but he is now!
So you believe that when He became flesh for the purpose of the atonement, He became less God?
Either your position is Jesus was fully man and fully God while in the flesh or He was not fully God.
Right now and forevermore Jesus has a body of flesh, He was resurrected in the flesh. Just because He had and has a physical body of flesh does not rob Him of His omnipresence, never has. He is and was always eternally one with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Jesus has a body of flesh, and Jesus has, as always, the Spirit of God which is omnipresent. You are missing the God connection. His flesh does not negate His God attributes.
He was fully God but lowered Himself to be Incarmated to our humanity. Re-read Phil 2: 6-12
I'm really surprised that we're even having this debate: I thought that what has been said here is pretty foundational to basic Christian Christology. The fact that it's even up for discussion surely demonstrates the theological bankruptcy of sola scriptura: here is the blind alley to which it deceitly leads!
I gave you several paragraphs of biblical support but you chose to ignore it, apparently because you can't handle the truth (apologies to Jack Nicholson). However there is one more scriptural basis for Mary's perpetual virginity that I forgot to include:
"Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and it was shut. And he said to me, “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut." Ezekiel 44:1-2.
You are misstating what I said a little bit. I did not say Matthew 1:27 demonstrates that Joseph kept his wife a virgin forever. What I did say was that this verse leaves open the question of whether Joseph kept his wife a permanent virgin. I gave you one scriptural passage that demonstrates this point. 1 Cor. 15:25. There are others, e.g., Philippians 1:5 and 2 Samuel 4:3. If I say, "He loved her until he was old and blind," it doesn't mean he stopped loving her after he became old and blind. You need to study up on your English. (Sorry about the dangling preposition.)
Please explain how Ezekiel is a proof of Mary’s virginity after giving birth to Jesus.
Honestly, the way you have abused the Bible by ripping verses out of context as a proof text to your pretext is the story of legends. You could be used as an example in a hermaneutics class on failed bible study in preparation.
How can you abuse God's word so horrifically?
You are misstating what I said a little bit. I did not say Matthew 1:27 demonstrates that Joseph kept his wife a virgin forever. What I did say was that this verse leaves open the question of whether Joseph kept his wife a permanent virgin. I gave you one scriptural passage that demonstrates this point. 1 Cor. 15:25. There are others, e.g., Philippians 1:5 and 2 Samuel 4:3. If I say, "He loved her until he was old and blind," it doesn't mean he stopped loving her after he became old and blind. You need to study up on your English. (Sorry about the dangling preposition.)
There are a lot of scriptural passages that point to Mary at the ark of the New Covenant:
Just as the glory of the Lord overshadowed the ark in the tabernacle, the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary.
THE ARK: “Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.” Exodus 40:34.
MARY: “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee.” Luke 1:35.
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In his narrative of the Visitation, Luke borrows heavily from references to the ark in 2 Samuel 6.
THE ARK: When trying to bring the ark up to the city, David said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" 2 Samuel 6:9.
MARY: When Elizabeth greeted Mary she said, “[W]hence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Luke 1:43. (Note the reference to the Theotokos.)
* * * * *
THE ARK: “[T]he ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months.” 2 Samuel 6:11.
MARY: “And Mary abode with her [Elizabeth] about three months.” Luke 1:56.
* * * * *
THE ARK: David was leaping before the ark as it was brought into the city. 2 Samuel 6:16.
MARY: At the sound of Mary’s voice, John leaped for joy in Elizabeth’s womb. Luke 1:44.
* * * * *
The contents of the ark are all symbolic of Jesus, who was conceived in the womb of Mary.
THE ARK CONTAINED (1) a golden jar holding the manna (bread), (2) Aaron's rod which budded (the priesthood) and (3) the tables of the covenant (the word of God) Hebrews 9:4.
OUR LORD, CONCEIVED IN THE WOMB OF MARY is to us (1) the Bread of Life, John 6:48; our High Priest, Hebrews 5:10; and the eternal Word, John 1:1
* * * * *.
Finally, in the book of Revelation we see the ark of the covenant, whose whereabouts has been unknown since the time of Jeremiah. Next we see the majestic woman with a crown of twelve stars giving birth to a child who would rule the nations. We don’t tend to read these verses together because of a chapter division but when they were written, there was no division. There is definitely a nexus between the ark and the woman (Mary) who gives birth to the child (Jesus).
“And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.” Revelation 11:19-12:1.
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