Ah, but I do follow those who follow the Bible....just not your interpretation of it. Do you see the difference?
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What is the hold?
- Thread starter steaver
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I think the Apostle James did that: "Was not our ancestors Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did etc" There it is: in black and white, in the pages of Scripture. I think we need say no more on it...
Matt, you are following traditions made up from the imaginations of men who misuse the Bible like Satan their father does.
I clearly see the difference.
You worship tradition over the Holy Scriptures and refuse to question the traditions of your church. Your have been taken down the rabbit trail that leads to hell and you don't care.
What's the context, Matt? Can you conceive of the context being used or are you content to butcher God's word like an ape wielding a machete?
Then you grossly misrepresent me. You are making all kind of false assumptions about me. I don't for example 'worship' tradition; I worship God alone. I value Tradition as a tool to teach and explain the truth of the Scriptures and it was my experience here that led me to value it: I had been a sola Sciptura evangelical here until about 11 years ago, and it was the way evangelicals here used Scriptures to hurl accusations of heresy at each other, each convinced that his or her personal interpretation was the correct one and everyone else's was wrong, that demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that sola Scriptura was perhaps a nice idea in theory but was useless in practice as an epistemological methodology: it plainly didn't work, so what was the point of it - it had to be wrong. Then I began to study church history and realised that wasn't the way the early Church and the first Christians did things anyway. So here I am, not blindly refusing to question Tradition but realising the truth that Scripture and Tradition working in tandem is the only sensible way to go.
Oh, and by the way, I'm not going to Hell. Why? Because my faith is in Jesus Christ, 100% Man and 100% God, and His sacrifice on the Cross and Resurrection from the dead and Ascension into glory, and I desire to follow Him and for Him to live in me and I in Him. He isn't going to let me go!
The context is the Epistle of James, and the discourse on the need for a true and lively faith evidenced by works. That's pretty clear too. No butchery, just reading what's written in the context in which it's written. Why don't you try it?
Question your traditions, Matt. Test them against the context of Scripture. Reject proof texts that have no context.
There is much the Roman church gets right, but much they get wrong. How can we discern? We test the doctrines against scripture.
As to yourself, I am glad you have been adopted and chosen by God.
Thanks. The trouble with testing things against Scripture is that it has multiple interpretations - so we keep going round in circles on this issue!
Here's the context, Matt.
James 2:5-26
[5]Listen to me, dear brothers and sisters. Hasn’t God chosen the poor in this world to be rich in faith? Aren’t they the ones who will inherit the Kingdom he promised to those who love him?
[6]But you dishonor the poor! Isn’t it the rich who oppress you and drag you into court?
[7]Aren’t they the ones who slander Jesus Christ, whose noble name you bear?
[8]Yes indeed, it is good when you obey the royal law as found in the Scriptures: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
[9]But if you favor some people over others, you are committing a sin. You are guilty of breaking the law.
[10]For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws.
[11]For the same God who said, “You must not commit adultery,” also said, “You must not murder.” So if you murder someone but do not commit adultery, you have still broken the law.
[12]So whatever you say or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law that sets you free.
[13]There will be no mercy for those who have not shown mercy to others. But if you have been merciful, God will be merciful when he judges you.
[14]What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?
[15]Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing,
[16]and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?
[17]So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.
[18]Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”
[19]You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.
[20]How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?
[21]Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
[22]You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete.
[23]And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God.
[24]So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.
[25]Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road.
[26]Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.
You can claim to have faith all day long, but the faith given by God will produce good works.
We see that Abraham had God-given faith because it produced good works. We see that Rahab had God-given faith because it produced good works.
Good works do not create faith. Faith creates good works.
Thus, James is in complete agreement with Paul who tells us that faith is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9) not a work of our own.
The person who makes a claim of having faith, but has no works is not a Christian, but is spiritually dead. God has not given him the gift of faith. He is an imposter.
No, there is only one interpretation that is true. That is God's interpretation. We must be diligent to seek God's meaning, rather than trust the traditions of men. This is why I question Calvin in many of his commentaries. In some places I shake my head and wonder how he got that from the passage. I am sure that others who recognize God's election and predestination also do the same thing with Calvin and other commentators. I believe it is healthy because iron sharpens iron.
There it is indeed. So why are you missing it??
•(James 2:14-26).
•Verse 22 - “Faith” made “perfect”. “perfect” – “teleioo” – “fulfill”.
•Verse 23 - “the scripture was fulfilled” - what scripture was fulfilled? – “which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:”
•So if we say we “believe in the LORD” is our “said faith” justified and fulfilled by how we respond to God’s direction for how we should live our lives as professing believers?
•So when the scripture said “Abraham believed God” (Genesis 15) – How was it fulfilled? How do we know Abraham believed God? – when Abraham obeyed God by doing what God asked him to do.
THE WORKS DID NOT SAVE ABRAHAM. IT WAS HIS TRUE FAITH WHICH WAS PROVEN TO BE TRUE BY HIS OBEDIENCE.
Why is this so difficult to understand??? Why do you think you are working your way to heaven???
There you go! You got it! You got it! Now don't revert back to your works save you!!!!
True faith EVIDENCED by works!!!
YES! He's got it!!! 
No, the original manuscripts didn't have chapters or verses. Yes, you do have to read scripture in context, and that is why Revelation 11:19 leads right into Revelation 12:1, thus lending support to the idea that the Blessed Virgin Mary is indeed the ark of the New Covenant.
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He still had all of them, just chose to not exercise them!
That would be heresy though, as Jesus is the ark that saves!
Faith alone grace alone
There is nothing...absolutely nothing...about Mary in Revelation 11. You have to pull a rabbit out of your hat to manufacture such a ludicrous allegory.
Revelation 11:15-19
[15]Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices shouting in heaven: “The world has now become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign forever and ever.”
[16]The twenty-four elders sitting on their thrones before God fell with their faces to the ground and worshiped him.
[17]And they said, “We give thanks to you, Lord God, the Almighty, the one who is and who always was, for now you have assumed your great power and have begun to reign.
[18]The nations were filled with wrath, but now the time of your wrath has come. It is time to judge the dead and reward your servants the prophets, as well as your holy people, and all who fear your name, from the least to the greatest. It is time to destroy all who have caused destruction on the earth.”
[19]Then, in heaven, the Temple of God was opened and the Ark of his covenant could be seen inside the Temple. Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and roared, and there was an earthquake and a terrible hailstorm.
Chapter 12 has nothing to do with Mary's vaginal canal being the Ark of the Covenant. How strange can the Roman church get?
Revelation 12:1-18
[1]Then I witnessed in heaven an event of great significance. I saw a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon beneath her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
[2]She was pregnant, and she cried out because of her labor pains and the agony of giving birth.
[3]Then I witnessed in heaven another significant event. I saw a large red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, with seven crowns on his heads.
[4]His tail swept away one-third of the stars in the sky, and he threw them to the earth. He stood in front of the woman as she was about to give birth, ready to devour her baby as soon as it was born.
[5]She gave birth to a son who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away from the dragon and was caught up to God and to his throne.
[6]And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place to care for her for 1,260 days.
[7]Then there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels.
[8]And the dragon lost the battle, and he and his angels were forced out of heaven.
[9]This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels.
[10]Then I heard a loud voice shouting across the heavens, “It has come at last— salvation and power and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown down to earth— the one who accuses them before our God day and night.
[11]And they have defeated him by the blood of the Lamb and by their testimony. And they did not love their lives so much that they were afraid to die.
[12]Therefore, rejoice, O heavens! And you who live in the heavens, rejoice! But terror will come on the earth and the sea, for the devil has come down to you in great anger, knowing that he has little time.”
[13]When the dragon realized that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
[14]But she was given two wings like those of a great eagle so she could fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness. There she would be cared for and protected from the dragon for a time, times, and half a time.
[15]Then the dragon tried to drown the woman with a flood of water that flowed from his mouth.
[16]But the earth helped her by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that gushed out from the mouth of the dragon.
[17]And the dragon was angry at the woman and declared war against the rest of her children—all who keep God’s commandments and maintain their testimony for Jesus.
[18]Then the dragon took his stand on the shore beside the sea.
The error was when Rome chose another false Gospel!
No it doesn't. We both agree works alone does not save a person, or that there is anything a person can do to even qualify as a good work without the assistance of God.
Can a imperfect faith save you?
They only issue we will continue to butt heads is faith alone doesn't dictate where allegiance is, faith can still be used for EVIL as Good.
James try to explain this that even the Demons believe.
7and shouting with a loud voice, he said, “What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!”
Demons and Devils have no trouble believing Jesus is God and Christ.
If you were to state that it is a faith in allegiance with God which would imply a love of God, this whole matter would be settled very quickly.
Notice Faith is compared to a body while works to the spirit. If faith was somehow the root by which creates works. Then using that logic you should be able to pile up some dead bodies then expect the SPIRIT->works to appear.
We are shown in scripture Faith on its own means nothing.
1 corinthians 13
2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
Notice this isn't just saying they have faith, this is actual faith that even moves mountains.
Again the point that makes it make or break is Love which is intrinsically Good, righteous of God.
Faith is neutral it is only confidence and trust. If God says he will place millions of dollars in a suitcase, They Devil believes, is confident, trusts and has FAITH God will do it.
Alone means Alone, Basic math here Grace + Faith that is 2 things.
Grace Alone works inside grace love and faith can be found. Faith alone does not because it has no bearing on allegiance.
"Faith working through Love" Galatians 5:6
If you don't indicate any allegiance or loyalty to God this is negated. As James says even demons believe.
If Faith alone was a packaged word where inside it contains love of God, that would pass.
Faith devoid of a love of God would fail.
As is, faith alone is failure, a dead body.
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