What is the name of this Church ?

[Alive in Christ]

Dr walter...

Alright, lets begin with your beginning point - Pentecost. Are those saints prior to Pentecost saved OUTSIDE of Christ or are they "IN CHRIST"? Are saints previous to Pentecost saved some other way or are they saved "by grace..through faith" in Christ?

There are differnt views on that.

Some christians view the pre-Christ Jews to be saved, or lost, based on a sort of combination of faith in God+good works.

I dont see it that way. I side with the view that the ones saved were saved solely on the basis of faith alone in the coming Messiah. (Christ of course)



But why bring this up? What does this have to do with the Church?

 

[DHK]

But why bring this up? What does this have to do with the Church?

I don't know what Dr. Walter has in mind, but I see it as significant.
Do you remember what Jesus said about John the Baptist?
First, he was the last of the OT prophets.
Second, John himself said that he was not part of the bride, but only a friend of the bridegroom. That being said, the OT saints are not part of the bride of Christ. The bride of Christ is composed of NT saints. That doesn't mean that the OT saints are not saved. We look forward to the marriage supper of the lamb. Who will attend? Who is the bride? Who are the guests? Think some of this through.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK...

Do you remember what Jesus said about John the Baptist?

First, he was the last of the OT prophets.

Second, John himself said that he was not part of the bride, but only a friend of the bridegroom.

That being said, the OT saints are not part of the bride of Christ. The bride of Christ is composed of NT saints. That doesn't mean that the OT saints are not saved. We look forward to the marriage supper of the lamb. Who will attend? Who is the bride? Who are the guests? Think some of this through.

I agree with all that you posted there.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Alright, then you are taking a position that not all the saved are in the church as you have excluded all pre-pentecost saints. Hence, salvation is not what places someone in your church so how does one become a member of your church?

Dr walter...




There are differnt views on that.

Some christians view the pre-Christ Jews to be saved, or lost, based on a sort of combination of faith in God+good works.

I dont see it that way. I side with the view that the ones saved were saved solely on the basis of faith alone in the coming Messiah. (Christ of course)



But why bring this up? What does this have to do with the Church?

 

[Tom Butler]

The scriptures know of only one kind of church--a local congregation

Except for those other times, such as when Jesus Christ said that He would build His Church..(not churches, plural) worldwide, on the rock of faith in Him.

Jesus built one church during his earthly ministry, starting with the twelve. It was a traveling assembly at first, finally gathering at Jerusalem. It was a visible congregation, complete with marching orders, ordinances, instructions in congregational discipline. Jesus empowered his little congregation to such an extent that they had power over demons. No universal church here.

: There are references to the church in a generic or institutional sense, in the same way we refer to the family. But there are only real, living breathing families.

Yes. All christians, world wide, are living breathing people. The universal church.

I assume you agree with the family analogy. There is no universal family. There are only individual families.

By the way, did you attend the last meeting of the U-church?

Yes...I did, actually. Our part of it. I play guitar and other instruments, and I provided some of the worship music.

Sounds like a local congregation to me. Complete, autonomous, self-contained.

Did they take up an offering, or observe the Lord's Supper.

The offering, yes. We will have the Lords supper in a couple of weeks.

As a local church.

Did you get a report from the missionaries the U-church sent out and supports?

We currently dont have any, but many others in the body surely do. Thousands world wide. Praise God.

Are all those missionaries in the body preaching the same gospel? Some of them in your "body" believe in sprinkling instead of immersion. Some missionaries hold to apostasy. Some hold to the ordinances as having sacramental value. Some missionaries hold to consubstantiation. Some will preach that glossolalia are proof of salvation. You okay with that?

Did you have a nice worship service?

It was excellant, as I'm sure tommorows will be as well.]

Ah, the local congregation again. Doing what it does naturally.

And by the way, what's so wonderful and glorious about a fractured, dysfunctional organization that is useless in carrying out the great commission;

I know of no christianity that fits that description.

See my comment about all those missionaries preaching something different. Certainly not on the same page. Divided. Dysfunctional.

and is made up of people from religious groups which hold to heresy?

That would be the cults. They arent christians.

There are believers in a number of religious groups which teach heresy. I believe some Catholics are saved in spite of their church's errors. I believe there are saved Methodists, Lutherans, Oneness Pentecostals. They're wrong on some things. They're not cults. Well, maybe the Oneness folks are, but not Methodists, etc., no.

I don't think your local congregation is the same thing as the Universal Church. Your congregation assembles. Still waiting on the next meeting of the U-Church.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Dr Walter....

Alright, then you are taking a position that not all the saved are in the church as you have excluded all pre-pentecost saints. Hence, salvation is not what places someone in your church so how does one become a member of your church?

All that is needed to be added to the Body of Christ (or, the universal church) is faith in Christ alone.

Regarding my particular local church, we expect our "members" to have been born again (faith in Christ), and also be water baptised.

 

[Tom Butler]

All that is needed to be added to the Body of Christ (or, the universal church) is faith in Christ alone.

Regarding my particular local church, we expect our "members" to have been born again (faith in Christ), and also be water baptised.

I know you are replying to Dr. Walter and he can speak for himself.

Why are there different criteria for becoming members of the U-Church and your local church?

And, when Paul was writing to the church at Corinth, he described it as THE body of Christ, (12:27)membership in which requires water baptism (12:13). So Paul's criteria for entry into THE Body of Christ was water baptism. If the congregation at Corinth was THE body of Christ, so is your local congregation.

Can both the u-Church and the L-church be described as the Body of Christ? Then why different entry requirements?

If there is no u-Church, these questions answer themselves. These questions answer themselves.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Tom Butler...

Why are there different criteria for becoming members of the U-Church and your local church?

Because the scriptures teach that justification (joining the body of Christ) occurs through faith alone.

Regarding local felloshipps (local churchs), the scriptures teach that we should water baptise new believers wishing to join that felloship.

And, when Paul was writing to the church at Corinth, he described it as THE body of Christ, (12:27)membership in which requires water baptism (12:13). So Paul's criteria for entry into THE Body of Christ was water baptism. If the congregation at Corinth was THE body of Christ, so is your local congregation.

Of course.

Can both the u-Church and the L-church be described as the Body of Christ?

Yes. Absolutly

Then why different entry requirements?

Because the scriptures teach that the local church should water baptise new members.

There is no such admonition regarding being born again. (which places us into the body or Christ.)

Hope that helps.

 

[Grace&Truth]

Can you please give the verse that teaches that when a person is born again he is placed into the body of Christ (U-Body). Thanks![/COLOR]

 

[Dr. Walter]

Dr Walter....



All that is needed to be added to the Body of Christ (or, the universal church) is faith in Christ alone.

Are you saying that pre-pentecostal saints did not have faith in Christ? (Acts 10:43)???? If they had faith in Christ before Pentecost and those after have faith in Christ then it cannot simply be faith in Christ that places one in your church or all saints would be in your church and it is evident all saints are not? So again what places a person in your big church? Do you have a scripture to support your answer?

 

[Tom Butler]

Because the scriptures teach that justification (joining the body of Christ) occurs through faith alone.

Our brother Grace & Truth asked for scripture to support this statement.

What passage(s) teach that justification places one in the body of Christ?

So far, all we have seen from you are simple flat statements that the Bible says such things are true.

Please cite scripture references.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Grace and Truth...

"Can you please give the verse that teaches that when a person is born again he is placed into the body of Christ (U-Body). Thanks!

Well, you must be a new believer. Praise God! Welcome to the family of God! You are in for a wonderful adventure.

regarding your question, the best recomendation I can give you is to immerse yourself in the scriptures, and particularly the new testament scriptures.

You will find the subject of the "new birth"..or being "born again"..coming up over and over again.

A wonderful truth is that when one is born again they are translated out of darkness and into light.

1st Peter 2:9....

""But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;"

2 Cor 5: 17....

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature. old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new

Christ said....

In that day you will know that I am in the Father, the father is in me, and I in you

We enter into a brand new family. The family of God. We are joined with Christ and placed inti His body.

And it is permenant!

PRAISE GOD!

The scriptures tell us.....

For it is by grace that you are saved, trhough faith. And that not of yourself, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast

Praise the Lord!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Tom butler...

I have answered Grace and truth, and although I am not 100% for sure, I believe Grace and truth is a sister, not brother.

(occupation listed as "secretary.)

 

[Dr. Walter]

Am I to understand by this response to Tom that you believe it is not merely faith in Christ that places one in the body of Christ, since pre-Pentecost saints also exercised faith in Christ (Acts 10:43) but rather it is the new birth that places Post-Pentecostal saints in your big church??? Is this right? Even if it is a combination - faith and new birth????

However, Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again LONG BEFORE Pentecost (Jn. 3:3-6) and then rebuked him for not understanding this truth from the Old Testament Scriptures (Jn. 3:7-10). In the Old Testament Scriptures it was referred to as "circumcision of the heart."

Since both PRE and POST Pentecostal saints were believers "in Christ" and both were "born again" then these things cannot be what places a person in your BIG church or all saints from Genesis to the present would be in your church as these things are essential to be a Saint in any generation.

Romans 3:24-26 and Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2 make it clear that the redemption provided by Christ was applied to pre-cross saints through faith as much as it is applied to post-cross saints by faith. Abraham is given as "THE FATHER" or MODEL for "ALL BELIEVERS" in all ages in regard to FAITH IN CHRIST as presented in the gospel (Gal. 3:6-8) and in regard to justification by faith in Christ (Rom. 4:9-12).

So what is the MECHANISM that places anyone in your BIG church?

Grace and Truth...





Well, you must be a new believer. Praise God! Welcome to the family of God! You are in for a wonderful adventure.

regarding your question, the best recomendation I can give you is to immerse yourself in the scriptures, and particularly the new testament scriptures.

You will find the subject of the "new birth"..or being "born again"..coming up over and over again.

A wonderful truth is that when one is born again they are translated out of darkness and into light.

1st Peter 2:9....





2 Cor 5: 17....



Christ said....



We enter into a brand new family. The family of God. We are joined with Christ and placed inti His body.

And it is permenant!

PRAISE GOD!

The scriptures tell us.....



Praise the Lord!

 

[Grace&Truth]

Sorry, I did not mean to give the impression that I am a new believer, I have been saved for many years.

You are right I am a sister.

I still did not see any scripture that actually states that when we are born again that we are placed into a U-Body. I do agree that we are born into God's family and into the Kingdom of God at that time, but how do you equate the family of God or the Kingdom with a U-Body? Do you have a verse for that? It seems a leap to suggest that a body could be universal so why would God use terms such as body or assembly (keeping in mind the word church means assembly) which means local, in one place, working together etc.[/COLOR]

 

[Alive in Christ]

Dr walter...

So what is the MECHANISM that places anyone in your BIG church?

My church?

I dont have a world wide church. The Lord Jesus Christ does.

Jesus Christ said that "upon this Rock (faith in Christ) I will build my church. If He meant all the local churchs on earth he would have said "Upon this rock I will build my "churches", but He didnt.

He said "Church" for a reason.

He meant His global...or universal...CHURCH



Back to your question...

What is the mechanism that places someone in Christs church?

You should know the answer....

Faith in Christ. The new birth. At that point Christ indwells us, and we are His forever. We gain eternal life, plus Christs life alive in us.


We are also given a place in His Kingdom. The body of Christ.

We have brothers and sisters worldwide. Millions of them. Most we havent met but we will one day. Its Christs global Kingdom. Gods earthly family.

the Universal church.

I cant understand why you guys seem so (((terrified))) by it.

Maybe you think I am referring to catholicism. Thats ridiculous. Most catholics arent even christians.

Maybe you think I am talking about "Universalism". Thats absurd. The scriptures are clear that some will be lost.

I'm simply referring to Gods wonderful Universal church. All of Gods saved people worldwide.

PRAISE THE LORD!!!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Grace and truth...

You are right I am a sister.

Glad to meet you my sister.

I still did not see any scripture that actually states that when we are born again that we are placed into a U-Body.

Sometimes its called the Kingdom, or the Body of Christ. Universal church is just another name for it.

I do agree that we are born into God's family and into the Kingdom of God at that time, but how do you equate the family of God or the Kingdom with a U-Body?

Because the Kingdom, or Gods family, is world wide. Not just your little local church or my little local church or Dr walters little local church

We are a world wide presence here on this earth.

Do you have a verse for that?

Jesus is the one who said....

Upon the Rock (faith in Christ) I will build my CHURCH.

Why didnt He say: "I will build my local churchs"???

It seems a leap to suggest that a body could be universal so why would God use terms such as body or assembly (keeping in mind the word church means assembly) which means local, in one place, working together etc.

The universal church IS in one place...

Here on earth. :1_grouphug:

Working together. :thumbs:

"Church" works for a local church context, and it also works in a world wide context.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You have only repudiated your view of the church. Faith and new birth preceded the day of Pentecost and yet that kind of church did not exist prior the the foundation of apostles as the apostles were the first God set in the church (Eph. 2:20; 1 Cor. 12:28).

Therefore faith in Christ and new birth add no one to any kind of church before or after Pentecost.

You are confusing the "church" with the family and kingdom of God. Faith and new birth have always added the saints to the family and kingdom of God from Genesis to Revelation. However, faith and new birth NEVER added anyone to any kind of church at any time in the Bible.

Jesus used the term church 23 times. The first time is in Matthew 16:18 but you are forced to believe that the church he claimed to build in Matthew 16:18 he went on to use the same word "church" 22 more times but NEVER AGAIN spoke of the church he claimed to build?????????? The next 22 times are by context the local visible church instititution and nobody denies that because it is obvious to any reader as the context in every single next 22 cases demands it. The next two times he used the word "church" is in Matthew 18:15-18. What kind of church can do what is commanded there??? After that he used the church 19 times in Revelation 1-3. It is only used in the plural "churches" in Revelation chapter one four times. It is used seven times in the singular but addressed to specific located churches in chapters 2-3 and it is used seven times in the plural "churches" in Revelation 2-3 and finally used by Christ in the plural "churches" in Revelation 22:16. According to your view what Christ claims to build He NEVER talks about again but uses the same word "church" to talk about something he never claimed to build.

It is better to believe that the church Jesus claimed to build in Matthew16:18 is the SAME kind of church he continues to talk about the next 22 times.

Dr walter...



My church?

I dont have a world wide church. The Lord Jesus Christ does.

Jesus Christ said that "upon this Rock (faith in Christ) I will build my church. If He meant all the local churchs on earth he would have said "Upon this rock I will build my "churches", but He didnt.

He said "Church" for a reason.

He meant His global...or universal...CHURCH



Back to your question...

What is the mechanism that places someone in Christs church?

You should know the answer....

Faith in Christ. The new birth. At that point Christ indwells us, and we are His forever. We gain eternal life, plus Christs life alive in us.


We are also given a place in His Kingdom. The body of Christ.

We have brothers and sisters worldwide. Millions of them. Most we havent met but we will one day. Its Christs global Kingdom. Gods earthly family.

the Universal church.

I cant understand why you guys seem so (((terrified))) by it.

Maybe you think I am referring to catholicism. Thats ridiculous. Most catholics arent even christians.

Maybe you think I am talking about "Universalism". Thats absurd. The scriptures are clear that some will be lost.

I'm simply referring to Gods wonderful Universal church. All of Gods saved people worldwide.

PRAISE THE LORD!!!

 

[dan p]

Really ?

During the time of Acts, there was a Jewish denomination in Jerusalem and a gentile denomination away from Jerusalem mostly organized by Paul. After 70 AD the Jerusalem synod was destroyed and the gentiles gained control of Christianity.

Hi billwald , and I was agreeing with you , until you wrote , and when " Jerusalem was destroyed " the Gentiles gained contol of Chrisianity .

Show me the verses that Jerusalem were Christians ?

And a verse where they gained control ?

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom butler...

I have answered Grace and truth, and although I am not 100% for sure, I believe Grace and truth is a sister, not brother.

(occupation listed as "secretary.)

Thanks the correction.

My reaction to your answers to Grace & Truth is the same as hers. The scriptures you quoted don't support your view regarding membership in the U-Church. They deal with something else entirely.

Simply saying something is so does not make it so.