What is the purpose of Calvinism?

[psalms109:31]

Debate for eternity

We can debate this for eternity.

The truth of the matter that calvinist is exactly right, we can't debate them it is scriptual. I believe them, but I also believe Jesus. When the cross is preached it is for the world because God loved the world that He sent His Son and whosoever believes shall be saved.

You cannot fight the truth as you can't fight the truth of the calvinist that God does what all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and I am not lying nor is Paul in the letter to Timothy.

Calvinist don't understand this, so they have to limit the understanding of all to thier own understanding to make it make sence instead of believing God.

This does not mean universalism, because you cannot be saved unless you believe in Jesus.

We must stand firm even if our own understanding can't comprehend the word of God.

 

[gb93433]

Calvinist don't understand this, so they have to limit the understanding of all to their own understanding to make it make sense instead of believing God.

Do you mean it parallels German Rationalism?

 

[TrustingInHim]

Interesting discussion. Not that I can keep up. I have been studying Calvinism (5-point) over the last few months particularly, and find that the difference from non-Calvinists is basically perspective:

Calvanists emphasize events from God's perspective, whereas most Baptists generally emphasize man's roll.

I see both to be true at the same time: God is all sovereign - He has His purposes and they will be carried out no matter what choices man makes (man can gain or loose blessing but not change God's ultimate outcomes).

At the same time, man has the responsibility to receive and accept the Gospel/trust in Christ, and bear fruit, etc. God already knows who is going to be saved, actually choosing them from before the world was made, but because He is omniscient, it is still true that 'whosoever will' can trust Christ and be saved. Those who desire to be saved are the 'elect' and the chosen of God.

We have finite minds. God is infinite. Both ideas are found in the Bible and it is all true at the same time. At least, that's how I see it. I think most Calvanists would agree...not sure about everybody else.

 

[sag38]

I think most Calvanists would agree...not sure about everybody else.

Trusting, don't hold your breath. They tell us all the time that one can't have it both ways. Like you seem to be, I'm perfectly comfortable with both ways. I'm walking on the rail road tracks when it comes to this issue.

Calvinists lock themselves up in a nice, neat, little theological box full of tulips. If I were in that box I wouldn't want to come out either.

 

[doulous]

I think most Calvanists would agree...not sure about everybody else.

Trusting, don't hold your breath. They tell us all the time that one can't have it both ways. Like you seem to be, I'm perfectly comfortable with both ways. I'm walking on the rail road tracks when it comes to this issue.

Calvinists lock themselves up in a nice, neat, little theological box full of tulips. If I were in that box I wouldn't want to come out either.

I've never heard a worse mischaracterization of what Calvinists believe. Calvinists affirm two immutable facts: the sovereignty of God and the free will of man. Sounds like a contradictory claim, doesn't it? Allow me a moment to explain.

God is sovereign over the affairs of men. He does all He pleases and no one can stop Him for He is God. He predestines certain people for glory at the exclusion of others. That's the part Arminians disagree with. But man also has free will how can the two co-exist? Sinful man is held captive to his nature. The sinner sins because he is a sinner. Ephesians 2:1 says the sinner is dead in sin. There is no spiritual light within him. The sinner freely chooses to sin. The saint freely chooses God. Once regeneration takes place, as a work of the Spirit (Eph. 2:4,5), the individually freely chooses to believe because he is now able to do so. So we see both concepts at work: the sovereignty of God and the will of man.

 

[psalms109:31]

Flip a coin

I cannot be an arminian because I didn't do anything to save myself, the only reason I'm saved is because of what Jesus did for me on the cross. So it is God who saved me not what I did. God included me in His elect when I heard the Gospel of my salvation having believed, not because of my will because of His will. His word says believers shall be saved not our word. In order for me to earn my salvation is to never sin and no one but Christ has Succeded or pay my price for my sin which is death. That is not salvation but death. I cannot save myself so i have to trust in God and His word that believers shall be saved and it is not my belief that saved me, but what Christ did for me on the cross that saved me. Why, because our penalty for our sin is death, not belief. Please don't take this out of context.

Calvinist is right to and very scriptual, but I couldn't stay in that box,God is more than we can even comprehend or put in an arminian or a calvinist box. Calvinist and everthing they say is true and comes from scripture, but scripture goes beyond their understanding. God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. God has opened the door to the world and we are messengers of that. We don't have to understand just believe.

 

[webdog]

Calvinists affirm two immutable facts: the sovereignty of God and the free will of man. Sounds like a contradictory claim, doesn't it?

The way you have presented it...yes.

God is sovereign over the affairs of men. He does all He pleases and no one can stop Him for He is God.

Agreed :thumbs:

He predestines certain people for glory at the exclusion of others.

So the reprobate hasn't been predestined for anything? The reprobate are at the whim of open theism?
It goes both ways, if your first premise is true, the flipside is also true, unless you are referring to what predestination is entailing, being conformed to the image of His Son, and not salvation as you have implied.

But man also has free will how can the two co-exist? Sinful man is held captive to his nature.

Presupposition, no scriptural basis.

The sinner sins because he is a sinner.

Modern church "chritianese". This is flawed by defintion alone, as a sinner is one who sins...but that is another discussion about the flawed view of original sin referred to as augustinian original sin.

Ephesians 2:1 says the sinner is dead in sin. There is no spiritual light within him.

Light "in" him...correct. Light given "to" him, though. Christ is the light that lights ALL men.

The sinner freely chooses to sin. The saint freely chooses God.

You do realize to choose means having the choice of two or more things, correct? I also thought God's grace was "irresistable"? Something irresistable cannot be resisted...hence no choice.

Once regeneration takes place, as a work of the Spirit (Eph. 2:4,5), the individually freely chooses to believe because he is now able to do so.

More extra-biblical presuppositions..."pre faith regeneration". Man is able to choose based on what was done with the Truth given to them. Romans 1 is clear these people who you claim cannot ever accept the Truth have indeed had the opportunity to have do just that...but they rejected it.

So we see both concepts at work: the sovereignty of God and the will of man.

Not in your description we don't

 

[TrustingInHim]

He predestines certain people for glory at the exclusion of others. That's the part Arminians disagree with.

We agree here. I am not in the Arminian camp because there are many examples in the Bible of ones that God has purposed NOT to be saved: Pharaoh of Exodus for one, Judas is another. One that is believed to have saving faith in the O.T. was Nebuchadnezzar. God is merciful that he should save ANYONE at all; therefore, His choice is unquestionable.

The sinner sins because he is a sinner. Ephesians 2:1 says the sinner is dead in sin. There is no spiritual light within him. The sinner freely chooses to sin. The saint freely chooses God. Once regeneration takes place, as a work of the Spirit (Eph. 2:4,5), the individually freely chooses to believe because he is now able to do so. So we see both concepts at work: the sovereignty of God and the will of man.

I have always accepted the doctrine of total depravity. However, 'common grace' was recently discussed with me as being that grace of God that is not saving grace, but grace which keeps lost mankind from being completely at each other's throats in the chaos of sin. It is why the lost can be motivated toward acts of charity and kindness etc. Do you agree, Doulous?

The part about the elect being enabled by the Holy Spirit before one chooses to believe also rings true. But would you agree that in the journey of sanctification, Christians can choose to quench the Spirit or be Spirit-filled? We can let our old sin nature have more or less effect in our born-again lives and we can gain or loose blessings of God; yet God's sovereign plan of sanctification will be completed regardless of our actions, when we see Christ.

 

[MB]

Actually, you're wrong.

Sometimes I am wrong but if I am then you should have no trouble proving it with scripture. I'm going to prove you wrong. Read on.

The gospel cannot be understood by the sinner because it is spiritually appraised. The words may be processed, but not the spiritual truth. It is the Spirit that gives understanding, and this is done during the ordo salutis.

If this is so where is the scripture that says all this. The Bible doesn't say man can't understand, or that he can't hear.

Nicodemus was able to understand the words of Jesus, but not the things of the Spirit. Why? Go back to 1 Cor. 2:14. Nicodemus was not regenerate. His heart was still cold to the things of God.

You're ignoring the fact that Nicodemus came seeking Christ to ask these questions. The same passage that Calvinist and reformers use to make there claim that man can't understand also used to claim he can't seek God. The reason Nicodemus didn't understand was that Christ didn't explain it to him in words that Nicodemus could understand, nor that anyone could understand. You yourself would not understand it even today if it weren't for the gospel. The gospel is our explanation of those things in which Christ said. Christ spoke in parables inorder that men wouldn't understand. He explained these parables to the disciples so they could explain them to us after His death and ressurection in the gospel.
Your explanation of regeneration before faith is 1st Cor 2:14 Of course no one is expected to understand the deeper things of God (verse 10) but ,the gospel is simply understandable to anyone who reads it. The last time I checked Corinthians was not a gospel but a letter written by Paul about the deeper things of God.

Where do you see a work of man in this passage? The subject is God and the object is "us." God made us alive together with Christ, even while we were still dead in our trespasses and sins. Spiritually dead people can't believe because they are incapable of believing. Why? Again, back to 1 Cor. 2:14.

The only work in Salvation is God's. Jn 6:29 We were all in sin when we were saved. We were all undeserving and man does nothing to bring about Salvation. It's all of God. 1st Cor 2:14 does nothing to support your doctrine of man being regenerated before faith. It's completely the imagination of Augustine Luther and Calvin. It's simply the doctrine of men. Rom 3:10-18 never speaks of any disability not to mention Paul was quoting a fool Ps 14 and 53.

Just because you say, "There isn't even one scripture that even hints at prefaith regeneration" doesn't make it so.

What I say doesn't prove anything but what scripture says does.
Neither you or any other Calvinist have shown me any scripture that proves your claim. I've read the entire Bible several times and have never seen any thing that would even suggest it to be true. It's what you believe but you who are so sure it's there has never read it from scripture either. The things of God are told in scripture not in someones comentary. If it isn't in scripture then it doesn't exist in the doctrine of Jesus Christ and your wrong about it. Face it it isn't there.
MB

 

[TrustingInHim]

I think most Calvanists would agree...not sure about everybody else.

Trusting, don't hold your breath. They tell us all the time that one can't have it both ways. Like you seem to be, I'm perfectly comfortable with both ways. I'm walking on the rail road tracks when it comes to this issue.

Calvinists lock themselves up in a nice, neat, little theological box full of tulips. If I were in that box I wouldn't want to come out either.

Well, Calvinism is a perspective on God's plan of salvation by grace through faith. I think there are several varieties of Calvinists out there today. Some are extreme... but I think most hold to both the sovereignty of God and to a lesser degree the free will of man. We who are saved are made 'free' as bond servants of Christ right? Well, similarly that's how I think of mankind's free will: it is limited free will because God is God - sovereign over His creation, even after the fall.

 

[TrustingInHim]

Concerning the Holy Spirit's work BEFORE someone accepts God's plan of salvation, read John 16:8-15. Jesus himself explains that the Holy Spirit's ministry is that of convicting souls of sin and righteousness and judgment. The Holy Spirit brings a person to an understanding of his lostness and then that person can accept God's plan for his salvation. If the Gospel is presented and rejected, then that person is not being convicted by the Holy Spirit. He chooses sin instead.

 

[Jim1999]

Most Calvinists hold to a doctrine titled The Permissive Will of God. It is in thise sphere where man utilizes his so-called free will. God's permissive will comes within the sphere of God's absolute sovereignty.

It explains Jonah's rebellious attitude and ultimate correction by God, driving him in the path of God's choosing...preaching to the Ninevites.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[gb93433]

Interesting discussion. Not that I can keep up. I have been studying Calvinism (5-point) over the last few months particularly, and find that the difference from non-Calvinists is basically perspective:

Calvanists emphasize events from God's perspective, whereas most Baptists generally emphasize man's roll.

I seems that today more and more Baptists emphasize God's role and minimize their personal responsibility. I see it much as a personal excuse or simply fear to not share their faith.

From the Jewish perspective God created everything including evil. From a Greek perspective man has a role and God has a role. In America we come form a Greek philosophy. So one who chooses to think like a Greek and use the words of a Jew is a mile off of the proper perspective.

In the Hebrew OT, God is both active and passive and that has never changed despite what book writers promote.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I cannot be an arminian because I didn't do anything to save myself, the only reason I'm saved is because of what Jesus did for me on the cross.

Arminians believe that they didn't do anything to save themselves, and that they aer saved because of what Jesus did on the cross. What you have mentioned here is not the difference between arminians and Calvinists.

 

[TrustingInHim]

I seems that today more and more Baptists emphasize God's role and minimize their personal responsibility. I see it much as a personal excuse or simply fear to not share their faith.

From the Jewish perspective God created everything including evil. From a Greek perspective man has a role and God has a role. In America we come form a Greek philosophy. So one who chooses to think like a Greek and use the words of a Jew is a mile off of the proper perspective.

In the Hebrew OT, God is both active and passive and that has never changed despite what book writers promote.

To acknowledge that God is the Author and Finisher of our faith is not a way to avoid responsibility. I owe a debt that I can never repay; yes, it is His free gift, but God gave us His Word, the Bible, that we might know what He expects of His children. I should want to please Him therefore, I am compelled by love to obey His commandments. God is so good, that he gives us blessing and promises us rewards for doing what we should do anyway. If I get to caught up in what "I must" do, I rob God of His glory - it was Jesus who paid it all.

On Hebrew, Greek, passive, active and evil... that's a deep discussion. But just to say this: that God can be passive and active and all the while be sovereign.

 

[Pastor Larry]

In the Hebrew OT, God is both active and passive and that has never changed despite what book writers promote.

This is true in the NT as well, and is in no way contradictory to Calvinism.

 

[psalms109:31]

Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is in the words of Jesus Christ.

Jesus word is Spirit and it is life

You cannot stray from that truth. When Jesus words is spoken the Holy Spirit is speaking to all men. We are made alive through the Spirit that is in the words of Jesus. His word is Spirit and life.

The life they receive from His word presents two roads to believe and be saved or not and be condemned.

If we believe we are not saved because of what we did we are saved by grace, we are saved because of His word and the will of God to save believers and never forget that the cost of our sin is death, not belief. So it will always be what God did through Jesus that saved us.