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What is the spiritual state of the Elect Before faith in Jesus?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
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Many Calvinists have posted, and each and every one has tried to change the subject. Go figure.
Is there an issue with the fact we were chosen in eternity, before the foundation of the world? Nope. Now were we chosen corporately or individually? That is the issue.
Romans 8:33 demonstrates that no charge can be brought against the elect. Thus we were not elect as individuals when we were conceived in iniquity, when we were by nature children of wrath.
In order to be a Calvinist, you must say scripture does not mean what it says. Words have no meaning other than the meaning needed to fit with Calvinism. It is indefensible.
That is why they seek to change the subject, hurl insults, and evade discussion of the actual issues.
Once we are chosen individually, then no charge can be brought against God's elect, because once God sets us apart in Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation, justified forever.
Consider the number of verses: Romans 9:16 teaches total spiritual inability is a fiction. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches unconditional individual election is a fiction. 1 John 2:2 teaches Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. And Matthew 23:13 teaches irresistible grace is a fiction.
Romans 8:33 teaches individual election occurs after we are conceived in iniquity, after we have lived without mercy, after we were by nature children of wrath, because no charge, not one, can be brought again God's elect.
Is there an issue with the fact we were chosen in eternity, before the foundation of the world? Nope. Now were we chosen corporately or individually? That is the issue.
Romans 8:33 demonstrates that no charge can be brought against the elect. Thus we were not elect as individuals when we were conceived in iniquity, when we were by nature children of wrath.
In order to be a Calvinist, you must say scripture does not mean what it says. Words have no meaning other than the meaning needed to fit with Calvinism. It is indefensible.
That is why they seek to change the subject, hurl insults, and evade discussion of the actual issues.
Once we are chosen individually, then no charge can be brought against God's elect, because once God sets us apart in Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation, justified forever.
Consider the number of verses: Romans 9:16 teaches total spiritual inability is a fiction. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches unconditional individual election is a fiction. 1 John 2:2 teaches Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. And Matthew 23:13 teaches irresistible grace is a fiction.
Romans 8:33 teaches individual election occurs after we are conceived in iniquity, after we have lived without mercy, after we were by nature children of wrath, because no charge, not one, can be brought again God's elect.
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Oh I see I missed one fiction, are we made alive together with Christ or made alive while separated from Christ. We are regenerated, made alive, born anew, when we are spiritually put in Christ - Ephesians 2:5. Before we are alive together with Christ, we are separated from Christ, hence not alive but spiritually dead. Together with Christ - alive; Separated from Christ - dead. Get it, got it, good.
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Election doesn't have anything to do with being chosen to become converted, or saved from hell, or born again, or go to heaven, or anything else you might say to denote passing from death to life, and from darkness to light
Election is some believers being chosen as sons - i.e. joint-heirs with Christ, IF we suffer with Him.
Why do you think 2Peter 1:10 would exhort believers to make their calling and election sure?
And why do you think 1Peter 2:21 (same letter) says we were called for the purpose of following Jesus' example of suffering?
And why do you think Predestination and Election, in Romans 8, are in the middle of a context full of suffering? (verses 17, 18, 35, 38, 39)
And why do you think that in Mark 10:35-40, James and John wanted to share in Christ's glory, and He said it was NOT for Him to give, but is for those for whom it has been prepared? You know He said this to two of His apostles who believed in Him ??
And "eternity past" is a misnomer, as eternity is forever now
You are simply wrong! 2 Thessalonians 2:13 makes it clear that being chosen from the beginning is "TO" (Gr.eis with accusative) salvation, as well as being chosen "THROUGH" (Gr. dia - means) chosen means.
The same is stated in Ephesians 1:4. Look at the purpose clause at the end of the verse. They were not chosen because of forseen holiness but in order to be holy (set apart).
Finally, sonship is a legal position obtained through justification not election. If you will look at Romans 8:28 it is God's divine "purpose" that is the basis for foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification and glorification instead of vice versa.
I never said that Predestination is because if suffering. I said Election is because of suffering. Predestination is for those He foreknew as sons. You never answered why Romans 8 speaks so much about suffering, and why Paul said we are joint-heirs with Christ IF we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified with Him.
Not a foreknowledge off what we would do (though He surely does know that). But a foreknowing the person.
One of your problems is that you're confusing sequence and chronology. You also seem to be confusing time and eternity. You're thinking of PRE only as it relates to time. But God is not confined by time. He knows the end from the beginning. Does that mean He has to learn about the end, look through time to see the end?
God's predestination of us goes hand in hand with our suffering, and enduring to the end. Our endurance is not first, because He PREdestined some.
Another of your problems is you don't seem to understand the difference between huion and teknon. We are all children of God through faith in Christ. But we are still awaiting the adoption as sons.
Sonship us not automatic in justification. Sonship is through adoption. Not a Western understanding of adoption. Do some research.
Don't really understand what you are trying to say here.
Evidence of election is not the purpose for election. There are several other evidences of election in Romans 8:14-27. We do not suffer in order to be ultimately saved (glorified).
Ok!
No, I am not confused about either sequence or chronology or time and eternity. These passages give time in relationship to us, not God. His purpose preceded us in time and are not fulfilled until they are worked out in time. Look at what the Lord says concerning his purpose in Isaiah 46:10-11. He makes a distinction between what is purpose prior to time and what is fulfilled in time. Purpose precedes time - everything that he purposed prior to time, he says "I will perform it" in time. Both Ephesians 1:4 and 2 Thes. 2:13 are speaking of God's purpose of election in regard to us, not God and that makes it chronological in regard to us in time.
Endurance is not the cause of glorification, but His purpose is the cause. Endurance is merely the manifest fruit in time.
Wrong! We are teknia by new birth, we are huios by justification - LEGAL adoption (see Gal. 3:27-4:5). Romans 8:20-25 has to do with yet unredeemed things in reference to our physical bodies. In regard to our yet unredeemed physical bodies they MANIFEST our adoption.
. There are two different types of ancient adoption - jewish verus Roman. Paul is referring to the Roman in Galations 3:27-4:5 where the heir came to LEGAL AGE as a LEGAL son when he manifested it by putting on a white toga that DECLARED his legal status as heir/sonship. We are justified by faith and we put on that faith in baptism - which declares legal sonship/heirs.
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plain_n_simple
Active Member
Fallen, spiritually and physically disconnected from God, under the curse, body dying, soul and spirit in the ways of the world. Headed to final and eternal separation from God.
agreed, except for the modified part.
the question was not about mankind, in general, but about the elect in particular.
These were never headed to final and eternal separation from God.
They were in temporary separation because of the sin of Adam, and are reaping here in time, the consequences of their own sins.
If we say that they are headed to final and eternal separation from God (which I assume you will qualify with 'unless' they are saved through the gospel, and correct me if I am wrong here) then on what basis did God take Enoch up to heaven without going through the process of death ?
If we say it was because he 'walked with God', then we point to conduct and faith as the means of salvation, and not God's sovereign grace and plenteous mercy for Enoch.
We can ask the same thing about Elijah, and again, if God's basis for taking him to heaven without the process of dying is his faithfulness and work as a prophet, then we identify works and conduct as qualifications to heaven.
The elect were never bound for eternal and final separation from God.
They have been and always are the sheep of His pasture, and God had anticipated the fall so that their redemption and eternal salvation was not an afterthought spoken because Adam sinned and fell.
Christ being the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, also redeemed them and atoned for them through His blood as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Every picture, type, and illustration of God's redemption of His people in the world, from the animal he slew in Eden, to the Exodus, to the prostitutes He had his prophet marry, to David's sins and forgiveness, all these pointed to His redemption of His people from eternity past to eternity future, illustrated and finalized in time, and recorded in the Bible for the posterity of His people as in Paul's words :
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. (Romans 15:4).
plain_n_simple
Active Member
So the elect were not headed for eternal separation?
never were. the unelect are, and always have been.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
So why do the elect need Jesus if they have never been separated?
being separated by sin, here in time, and being headed to eternal
separation are two different things, to two different peoples.
ALL MANKIND, elect and unelect, are separated from God by sin.
However, while the elect had a Savior, the unelect do not.
Also, in the case of the elect, past, present, and future, the blood of Christ, and his death on the cross, reconciled them to God, as in Colossians
1:20-21, quote:
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
But notice, also, that while this scripture refers to the elect's eternal standing, it also refers to the child of God's TIMELY union with Christ, as in the following two verses:
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard , and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
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plain_n_simple
Active Member
being separated by sin, here in time
If I am separated from God by sin today, where am I headed?
If I am separated from God by sin today, where am I headed?
you will perish, here in time, unless you confess and repent.
Hosea 4:6 - 6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
your perishing is timely. that is, sin blocks the blessings which obedience obtains, here in time.
hell is not your destination, never was.
your name was written in Heaven's Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world, not when you accepted Him as your Savior.
you were always sheep to Him, His saint.
you were never a goat who transforms into sheep, although you behaved and smelled like a goat, prior to your quickening and conversion.
your perishing is timely. that is, sin blocks the blessings which obedience obtains, here in time.
hell is not your destination, never was.
your name was written in Heaven's Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world, not when you accepted Him as your Savior.
you were always sheep to Him, His saint.
you were never a goat who transforms into sheep, although you behaved and smelled like a goat, prior to your quickening and conversion.
Go to the two thieves on the cross... There is Election in action. There is only one way that thief is changed by Jesus. He didn't change his own heart. The Saviour crucified between two thieves one elect and one non-elect. Point of fact he never address that non-elect man he didn't belong to him he was a goat.
hell is not your destination, never was.
your name was written in Heaven's Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world, not when you accepted Him as your Savior.
you were always sheep to Him, His saint.
you were never a goat who transforms into sheep, although you behaved and smelled like a goat, prior to your quickening and conversion.
Go to the two thieves on the cross... There is Election in action. There is only one way that thief is changed by Jesus. He didn't change his own heart. The Saviour crucified between two thieves one elect and one non-elect. Point of fact he never address that non-elect man he didn't belong to him he was a goat.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
What does the word "whosoever" mean to you fellows. By itself, what does "whosoever" say?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Yet another unbiblical assertion from Calvinism. The idea expressed in the OP is that foreseen individuals without foreseen faith were chosen for salvation unconditionally before creation. Thus a person would be elect before conception.
Now all you careful bible students, flip open your study bibles, which would be word for word translation philosophy versions, and look at Romans 8:33.
Now each and every Calvinist on this board will bring the charge of not being justified against every supposedly elect person before they put their faith in Christ. All of them deny Romans 8:33.
Once again, Calvinism has been demonstrated to be unbiblical.
Now if God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, then they would have not been chosen individually before they came to faith. This view is therefore consistent with all scripture. Once again, scripture precludes the election of Ephesians 1:4 being individual and requires it to be corporate.
So what does the Scripture you quoted have to do with anything you said?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That is what Ephesians 2:1-8 teaches and I also believe John 3:3ff.
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