Jesus God incarnate was one Person, God the Son.
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What is "The Word"?
- Thread starter Mikey
- Start date
What point are you making, Jesus was one Person, God the Son, who had while in human form had fleshly desires? Everyone knows that!!!!
Did anyone say or suggest Jesus was not God incarnate? Nope, so obfuscation on display.
Returning to topic!!
In the Old Testament "Dabar" is translated as "Word" in phrases indicating the words of God are in view. Thus communication to carry out His purpose. Often the singular (word) is used to convey a statement containing several individual words.
In Genesis 1:3, where God says "Let their be light" we might jump to the conclusion He spoke words in the Hebrew language. But this was before that language existed. Certainly God commanded His creative power to create light out of nothing visible. So we might say "the Word" is what carries out God's purpose. And it certainly comes in the form of words understandable to His human audience, such as the Ten Commandments, in the form of creative power, and most importantly to me, in the from of God the Son.
Does anyone dispute Jesus was "Logos" (Word) incarnate? Nope
Does anyone dispute that Jesus experienced every "fleshly desire" of our human bodies, including seeking comfort and security rather than the pain, suffering and death of the cross?
Logos is that which accomplishes God's purpose.
I don't see where Peterson adds anything to the discussion (I like Peterson on other topics, but he kinda turns theology into sociology). I appreciated the others in the discussion more.
The classic theological explanation is best - Logos means "begotten" or "coming forth", as in Word, Light, Life. Butcrather than having a beginning from a source this is begotten eternally, from before all ages. An illustration often made of this relationship is as between the sun and light if these eternally existed (or between the mind and words as an expression of the mind).
Given what we have in Scripture it seems that these guys are making a fairly simple concept, one that a fisherman from Galilee would easily grasp, more complicated than needed. Perhaps that's why Jesus called them as Disciples rather than the Jewish theologians.
The classic theological explanation is best - Logos means "begotten" or "coming forth", as in Word, Light, Life. Butcrather than having a beginning from a source this is begotten eternally, from before all ages. An illustration often made of this relationship is as between the sun and light if these eternally existed (or between the mind and words as an expression of the mind).
Given what we have in Scripture it seems that these guys are making a fairly simple concept, one that a fisherman from Galilee would easily grasp, more complicated than needed. Perhaps that's why Jesus called them as Disciples rather than the Jewish theologians.
Mathetes66
Member
The video posted at the beginning of this thread focuses on the first phrase of John 1:1 but not the whole verse or the context. It is asked by a well known Jewish person today who respects Christianity but admits he doesn't understand what the phrase, 'In the beginning WAS the Word...' means. Various people go on to share their 'opinion' of what they think it means WITHOUT actually discussing what the Scripture actually says in that passage & context. Things are 'added' to that phrase & things are taken away from that simple phrase. God states we are not to do that.
Deut 4:2,5-7,12-14 YOU SHALL NOT ADD TO THE WORD WHICH I COMMAND YOU NOR TAKE FROM IT, so that you may KEEP the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. “Surely I have taught you statutes & judgments, JUST AS the Lord my God commanded me, so that you should act according to them in the land which you go to possess. 6Therefore BE CAREFUL T
BSERVE (OBEY) them; for THIS IS YOUR WISDOM & YOUR UNDERSTANDING IN THE SIGHT OF THE PEOPLES who will hear all these statutes & say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise & understanding people...’ “For what great nation is there that has God SO NEAR TO IT, as the LORD our God is to us, for whatever reason we may call upon Him?... And the LORD SPOKE TO YOU out of the midst of the fire. You heard THE SOUND OF THE WORDS, but saw NO FORM; you onlyHEARD A VOICE. 13So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, THE 10 COMMANDMENTS & He WROTE THEM ON TWO TABLETS OF STONE. 14And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes & judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess.
Prov 30:5-6 Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. DO NOT ADD TO HIS WORDS, lest He rebuke you & prove you a liar.
Deut 12:32 “Everything I command you, you shall be careful to do it; you shall not ADD TO IT NOR TAKE AWAY FROM IT.
Jeremiah 23:16 This is what the LORD of Hosts says: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They are filling you with false hopes. THEY SPEAK VISIONS FROM THEIR OWN MINDS, NOT FROM THE MOUTH OF THE LORD.
God spoke His words to His Son, His servants, prophets & apostles & had them write them down so that they may be kept & obeyed, so that they may be our wisdom & our understanding when people who don't believe ask us what they mean. We should have an answser when asked.
Heb 1:1,2 After God spoke long ago IN various portions & IN various ways to our ancestors through the prophets, but IN THE LAST OF THESE DAYS He has spoken to us IN His son, whom He appointed heir of all things & through Whom He created the worlds [ages, universe as a whole].
I Pet 3:15 But set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts & always be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks you to explain the hope you have within you, but with gentleness & reverence.
Back to the original question: "What does, 'in the beginning WAS the Word...mean'? To learn what it means, as the author intended it to mean, we must first OBSERVE what it actually says, in the immediate and then the following context & correlating passages.
John 1:1-5 In the beginning WAS the Word & the Word was WITH God & the Word WAS God. 2HE was WITH God in the beginning. 3All things came into being through Him & without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.. 4IN HIM WAS life & that life was the light of men. 5The Light SHINES in the darkness & the darkness did not COMPREHEND it.
One asks the question: WHICH beginning is talked about here? We find the answer in the context: creation of the universe (all things were made through Him, everything came into being & existence THROUGH Him, NOTHING EXISTED APART FROM Him making it, bringing it into being & existence). Does other corresponding Scripture affirm this? Yes.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God (Elohim-plural) created (singular verb) the heavens (plural) & the earth. Here we have the very beginning of time, space (heavens & all they contain) & matter (earth & all that it contains).
Col 1:15-17 The Son IS the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OVER all creation. For IN Him all things were created, things IN heaven & on earth, VISIBLE & INVISIBLE, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created THROUGH Him & FOR Him. He himself is [continually exists] BEFORE all things & all things are held together IN HIM.
Ephesians 1:22 And God put everything under His feet & made Him HEAD OVER EVERYTHING for the church...
1 Cor 8:6 Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, FROM whom all things came & FOR whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH whom all things came & THROUGH whom we exist.
Now that the event, beginning, is clarified in the context as the beginning of time & the universe, heavens & earth, what are some things in the verse & context that we do know about 'the Word'?
First, the definite article 'THE' is placed in front of Word, distinguishing it from 'a' random or a spoken word.
Second, the verb 'WAS' is in the past tense, signifying that WHEN the beginning started, THE WORD was already existing. In other words, before time began, before space began, before matter began, THE WORD was already existing in eternity past. Scripture does NOT say, In the beginning IS the Word or in the beginning is a word but in the beginning WAS THE WORD.
Third, in addition to these facts ('AND'), we observe in the next phrase, 'AND the Word was WITH (THE) GOD,' that this specific Word was already existing WITH The God before anything came into existence. The definite article is used for both the Word & God, making them distinct. In English, it is not proper to say 'the God' but in the Greek the definite article is there. Also the word 'WITH' is used here, distinguishing between two unique things yet uniting both things. Both were continually existing TOGETHER before anything else existed. In the Greek, 'pros ton Theon' it literally means the Word was already existing facing toward the already existing God, facing one another.
In addition ('AND'), we learn that not only was the Word already existing before anything was created and was already existing with the God before anything was created and facing toward the God, but now we also learn that THE WORD (definite article again used) WAS GOD (no definite article used in the Greek, denoting not the person of God but the unique quality of God: His nature, essence, substance or being, that quality that makes God, God.) In other words, what God was (already existing before creation), the Word was (alreadying existing before creation).
Then we find out THE WORD is a person! He was with the God in the beginning. He made all things, in Him was life, He was the true light of the world that enlightens every man, He was in the world but the world did not know Him, He came to his own people (nation of Israel) but they didn't receive Him but those who believed in Him & believed in HIS NAME, they became born again, born from above by God & became His children. And this person, whose name is the Word, became flesh & dwelt among us & we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace & truth. The Word which was God, also became a man & tabernacled among us & was the only begotten Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. The same author, the apostle John also wrote:
Rev 19:12-14 HE has eyes like blazing fire & many royal crowns on HIS HEAD. HE has a name written on HIM that only HE HIMSELF knows. 13 HE is dressed in a robe dipped in blood & HIS NAME is THE WORD OF GOD. 14The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white & pure, follow HIM on white horses...
I John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, THE WORD & the Holy Spirit & these three are one.
I John 1:1-4 That which WAS FROM THE BEGINNING, which we HAVE HEARD, which we HAVE SEEN WITH OUR EYES, which we looked upon & have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— 3that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4And we are writing these things so that oura joy may be complete.
There is so much more that can be observed about our amazing Lord & Savior & God, Jesus Christ. Amen!
Deut 4:2,5-7,12-14 YOU SHALL NOT ADD TO THE WORD WHICH I COMMAND YOU NOR TAKE FROM IT, so that you may KEEP the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. “Surely I have taught you statutes & judgments, JUST AS the Lord my God commanded me, so that you should act according to them in the land which you go to possess. 6Therefore BE CAREFUL T
BSERVE (OBEY) them; for THIS IS YOUR WISDOM & YOUR UNDERSTANDING IN THE SIGHT OF THE PEOPLES who will hear all these statutes & say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise & understanding people...’ “For what great nation is there that has God SO NEAR TO IT, as the LORD our God is to us, for whatever reason we may call upon Him?... And the LORD SPOKE TO YOU out of the midst of the fire. You heard THE SOUND OF THE WORDS, but saw NO FORM; you onlyHEARD A VOICE. 13So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, THE 10 COMMANDMENTS & He WROTE THEM ON TWO TABLETS OF STONE. 14And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes & judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess.Prov 30:5-6 Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. DO NOT ADD TO HIS WORDS, lest He rebuke you & prove you a liar.
Deut 12:32 “Everything I command you, you shall be careful to do it; you shall not ADD TO IT NOR TAKE AWAY FROM IT.
Jeremiah 23:16 This is what the LORD of Hosts says: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They are filling you with false hopes. THEY SPEAK VISIONS FROM THEIR OWN MINDS, NOT FROM THE MOUTH OF THE LORD.
God spoke His words to His Son, His servants, prophets & apostles & had them write them down so that they may be kept & obeyed, so that they may be our wisdom & our understanding when people who don't believe ask us what they mean. We should have an answser when asked.
Heb 1:1,2 After God spoke long ago IN various portions & IN various ways to our ancestors through the prophets, but IN THE LAST OF THESE DAYS He has spoken to us IN His son, whom He appointed heir of all things & through Whom He created the worlds [ages, universe as a whole].
I Pet 3:15 But set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts & always be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks you to explain the hope you have within you, but with gentleness & reverence.
Back to the original question: "What does, 'in the beginning WAS the Word...mean'? To learn what it means, as the author intended it to mean, we must first OBSERVE what it actually says, in the immediate and then the following context & correlating passages.
John 1:1-5 In the beginning WAS the Word & the Word was WITH God & the Word WAS God. 2HE was WITH God in the beginning. 3All things came into being through Him & without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.. 4IN HIM WAS life & that life was the light of men. 5The Light SHINES in the darkness & the darkness did not COMPREHEND it.
One asks the question: WHICH beginning is talked about here? We find the answer in the context: creation of the universe (all things were made through Him, everything came into being & existence THROUGH Him, NOTHING EXISTED APART FROM Him making it, bringing it into being & existence). Does other corresponding Scripture affirm this? Yes.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God (Elohim-plural) created (singular verb) the heavens (plural) & the earth. Here we have the very beginning of time, space (heavens & all they contain) & matter (earth & all that it contains).
Col 1:15-17 The Son IS the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OVER all creation. For IN Him all things were created, things IN heaven & on earth, VISIBLE & INVISIBLE, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created THROUGH Him & FOR Him. He himself is [continually exists] BEFORE all things & all things are held together IN HIM.
Ephesians 1:22 And God put everything under His feet & made Him HEAD OVER EVERYTHING for the church...
1 Cor 8:6 Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, FROM whom all things came & FOR whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH whom all things came & THROUGH whom we exist.
Now that the event, beginning, is clarified in the context as the beginning of time & the universe, heavens & earth, what are some things in the verse & context that we do know about 'the Word'?
First, the definite article 'THE' is placed in front of Word, distinguishing it from 'a' random or a spoken word.
Second, the verb 'WAS' is in the past tense, signifying that WHEN the beginning started, THE WORD was already existing. In other words, before time began, before space began, before matter began, THE WORD was already existing in eternity past. Scripture does NOT say, In the beginning IS the Word or in the beginning is a word but in the beginning WAS THE WORD.
Third, in addition to these facts ('AND'), we observe in the next phrase, 'AND the Word was WITH (THE) GOD,' that this specific Word was already existing WITH The God before anything came into existence. The definite article is used for both the Word & God, making them distinct. In English, it is not proper to say 'the God' but in the Greek the definite article is there. Also the word 'WITH' is used here, distinguishing between two unique things yet uniting both things. Both were continually existing TOGETHER before anything else existed. In the Greek, 'pros ton Theon' it literally means the Word was already existing facing toward the already existing God, facing one another.
In addition ('AND'), we learn that not only was the Word already existing before anything was created and was already existing with the God before anything was created and facing toward the God, but now we also learn that THE WORD (definite article again used) WAS GOD (no definite article used in the Greek, denoting not the person of God but the unique quality of God: His nature, essence, substance or being, that quality that makes God, God.) In other words, what God was (already existing before creation), the Word was (alreadying existing before creation).
Then we find out THE WORD is a person! He was with the God in the beginning. He made all things, in Him was life, He was the true light of the world that enlightens every man, He was in the world but the world did not know Him, He came to his own people (nation of Israel) but they didn't receive Him but those who believed in Him & believed in HIS NAME, they became born again, born from above by God & became His children. And this person, whose name is the Word, became flesh & dwelt among us & we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace & truth. The Word which was God, also became a man & tabernacled among us & was the only begotten Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. The same author, the apostle John also wrote:
Rev 19:12-14 HE has eyes like blazing fire & many royal crowns on HIS HEAD. HE has a name written on HIM that only HE HIMSELF knows. 13 HE is dressed in a robe dipped in blood & HIS NAME is THE WORD OF GOD. 14The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white & pure, follow HIM on white horses...
I John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, THE WORD & the Holy Spirit & these three are one.
I John 1:1-4 That which WAS FROM THE BEGINNING, which we HAVE HEARD, which we HAVE SEEN WITH OUR EYES, which we looked upon & have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— 3that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4And we are writing these things so that oura joy may be complete.
There is so much more that can be observed about our amazing Lord & Savior & God, Jesus Christ. Amen!
In the beginning was the Word, the Word is GOD(John 1:1), GOD Himself, GOD the Father, Self-executing, Self-executable. John the Baptist, the angel of the Lord, said: John 1:18-> No man hath seen GOD at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him. Well, in the beginning, that is, in JESUS, was the Word->Johm 12:48-50. ->1John 5:7->There are three that bear record (or testify) in heaven, the Father(the Word), the Word(the Word made flesh-JESUS), and the Holy Spirit (who is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a person, the Holy Spirit doesn't like the NICKNAME of ghost): and these three are One. By the way, the person of the Holy Spirit is the GOD of the earth-Revelation 11:4 combined with John 14:26 and 15:26 and 16:12-15, take a look.
JESUS said: Matthew 11:27-> no man knoweth the Son, but the Father(the invisible GOD); neither knoweth any man the Father(the invisible GOD), save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.->GOD- It's it.
JESUS said: Matthew 11:27-> no man knoweth the Son, but the Father(the invisible GOD); neither knoweth any man the Father(the invisible GOD), save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.->GOD- It's it.
Mathetes66
Member
Thanks for your post Oseas3. However, John 1:1 does not say, the Word is God but the Word was God. God the Son is distinct as to Person from God the Father, but equal to the Father in nature, essence, being & purpose. Also John the Baptist is not called the angel of the Lord, but the preincarnate Christ is called by that title in many passages in the OT. Also I do not find any passage where the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost says He doesn't like the nickname of Ghost. Ghost is used in older Bible translations but even in them the term Holy Spirit & Holy Ghost are used interchangeably to translate the same Greek or Hebrew terms.
In John 5:7 You seem to imply that God the Father is the Word, not Jesus, which that passage states there are three unique Persons or personages in that passage and all THREE are one. Also that Jesus simply had the word in Himself but He was not the Word distinct from the Father & distinct from the Holy Spirit. These are contrary to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, the faith once for all delivered to the saints.
It is called modalism or Sabellianism (the person who taught this false doctrine). Modalism is the belief that God is a single person (not 3 co-eternal & co-equal persons) who reveals Himself in three different modes or forms: the same person with 3 titles: the Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit, rather than as three distinct persons. In contrast, the Trinity doctrine teaches that there is one God in three coexisting & coeternal persons—Father, Son & Holy Spirit (not just titles)—who share the same divine essence but are distinct (not separate as God does not have parts) from one another. It denies the individual persons of the Trinity. It views biblical terminology of God the Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit as merely modes of existence or manifestations of the one God. Sabellius held that there is one God who can be designated by three different names— ‘Father,’ ‘Son,’ and ‘Holy Spirit’—at DIFFERENT times, but these three are not distinct persons. And the one person cannot manifest at the same time being the Father & the Son, which Scripture shows plainly the distinct persons of the Trinity manifesting at the same time.
Luke 3:21,22 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And AS HE WAS PRAYING, heaven was opened AND the Holy Spirit DESCENDED ON HIM in a bodily form like a dove. AND A VOICE CAME FROM HEAVEN: “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.
Second & third-century church fathers like Tertullian (160–220), Origen (184–254), Dionysius (3rd century) & others denounced it. In the 4th century the Councils of Nicaea (325AD) & Constantinople (381), denounced Modalism as falling outside the boundaries of biblical orthodoxy.
In John 5:7 You seem to imply that God the Father is the Word, not Jesus, which that passage states there are three unique Persons or personages in that passage and all THREE are one. Also that Jesus simply had the word in Himself but He was not the Word distinct from the Father & distinct from the Holy Spirit. These are contrary to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, the faith once for all delivered to the saints.
It is called modalism or Sabellianism (the person who taught this false doctrine). Modalism is the belief that God is a single person (not 3 co-eternal & co-equal persons) who reveals Himself in three different modes or forms: the same person with 3 titles: the Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit, rather than as three distinct persons. In contrast, the Trinity doctrine teaches that there is one God in three coexisting & coeternal persons—Father, Son & Holy Spirit (not just titles)—who share the same divine essence but are distinct (not separate as God does not have parts) from one another. It denies the individual persons of the Trinity. It views biblical terminology of God the Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit as merely modes of existence or manifestations of the one God. Sabellius held that there is one God who can be designated by three different names— ‘Father,’ ‘Son,’ and ‘Holy Spirit’—at DIFFERENT times, but these three are not distinct persons. And the one person cannot manifest at the same time being the Father & the Son, which Scripture shows plainly the distinct persons of the Trinity manifesting at the same time.
Luke 3:21,22 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And AS HE WAS PRAYING, heaven was opened AND the Holy Spirit DESCENDED ON HIM in a bodily form like a dove. AND A VOICE CAME FROM HEAVEN: “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.
Second & third-century church fathers like Tertullian (160–220), Origen (184–254), Dionysius (3rd century) & others denounced it. In the 4th century the Councils of Nicaea (325AD) & Constantinople (381), denounced Modalism as falling outside the boundaries of biblical orthodoxy.
Right, it is written the Word was GOD, but only for clarify, for you already know, the Word is from everlasting to everlasting, the Word was GOD, and is GOD, and will be for ever.
As the Word made flesh said: -> I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning->(in the beginning was the Word), and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty- Revelation 1:8.
The Word made flesh-JESUS-, said: John 17:5:->5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. -> And John 10:30-> JESUS said: -> I and my Father (two distincts Persons-Hebrews 1:1-3) are One. It's it.
Mathetes66
Member
Yes, indeed Oseas