What Is This Departure?

[DeafPosttrib]

The only way that you shall be able to understand 2 Thess. 2:3 clear. You have to read context of chapter. Before you arrive to verse 3. First, you have to read verse 1 and 2. What verse 1 is talking about? It talks about our gathering together at Christ's coming. Why Paul pleads them to pay attention? Because Paul heard rumours over the area of Thessalonica, saying Christ already arrived, and they might miss His coming. SDo, that why he wrote chapter 2. Look verse 2 says, do not believe anyone saying that the 'DAY OF CHRIST' is already arrived, hear any words to disciples, or letters, or from Paul, etc. mentioned on Christ's coming.

Then, verse 3 says, do not let anyone deceived you of 'any means'. What "any means' speaks of? Rumours on the timing of Christ's coming. Paul sais, DAY shall not come. What 'day' stands for? Day of Christ is our gathering together contexts with verse 1. Paul said, our gathering together shall not come till we must see apostasy come first, and then the man of sin be revealed. Clearly, this cannot be pretribulational. We must see three things to come - 1. falling awaay(apotasy) 2. man of sin revealed 3. persecution against Church ("sitteth in the temple of God")- vs. 4.

"falling away" in Greek word - 'apostasia' is not the meaning of rapture or caught up. It means depart from faith, depart from truth.

We already seeing apostasy everywhere over America and world today since Early Church to now.

When the apostasy reach worst as climax- peak, God know swhen the right time to comes, God will allow Satan to be loose out of the midst(2 Thess. 2:6-7), then Satan shall be revealed as transform into man be acts like as Messiah to deceive the world, and also persecution against Christians. Then, 2 Thess. 2:8b telling us, Satan shall be destroy by Christ's coming in power and glory.

So, therefore, 2 Thess. 2:1-8 cannot be pretribulational, we must face these things to come to pass first before our gathering together.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Palatka51]

The only way that you shall be able to understand 2 Thess. 2:3 clear. You have to read context of chapter. Before you arrive to verse 3. First, you have to read verse 1 and 2. What verse 1 is talking about? It talks about our gathering together at Christ's coming. Why Paul pleads them to pay attention? Because Paul heard rumours over the area of Thessalonica, saying Christ already arrived, and they might miss His coming. SDo, that why he wrote chapter 2. Look verse 2 says, do not believe anyone saying that the 'DAY OF CHRIST' is already arrived, hear any words to disciples, or letters, or from Paul, etc. mentioned on Christ's coming.

Then, verse 3 says, do not let anyone deceived you of 'any means'. What "any means' speaks of? Rumours on the timing of Christ's coming. Paul sais, DAY shall not come. What 'day' stands for? Day of Christ is our gathering together contexts with verse 1. Paul said, our gathering together shall not come till we must see apostasy come first, and then the man of sin be revealed. Clearly, this cannot be pretribulational. We must see three things to come - 1. falling awaay(apotasy) 2. man of sin revealed 3. persecution against Church ("sitteth in the temple of God")- vs. 4.

"falling away" in Greek word - 'apostasia' is not the meaning of rapture or caught up. It means depart from faith, depart from truth.

We already seeing apostasy everywhere over America and world today since Early Church to now.

When the apostasy reach worst as climax- peak, God know swhen the right time to comes, God will allow Satan to be loose out of the midst(2 Thess. 2:6-7), then Satan shall be revealed as transform into man be acts like as Messiah to deceive the world, and also persecution against Christians. Then, 2 Thess. 2:8b telling us, Satan shall be destroy by Christ's coming in power and glory.

So, therefore, 2 Thess. 2:1-8 cannot be pretribulational, we must face these things to come to pass first before our gathering together.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Highlighting and bolding mine.

Amen and again I say amen!

Here is more that indicates that Jesus is held back.

Revelation 14:13-20
13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Verse 14, Jesus is sitting waiting on Word from the Father to go get His Bride.
Verse 15, Word comes from the temple that is in heaven. Remember what Jesus said? No man knoweth the day or the hour --- but the Father in Heaven. Matt 24:36 The harvest is ripe it is time to seperate the wheat from the useless tares.

Verses 17-20 tells us what remains, it is not tribulation of saints but wrath.
Verse 18 shows that the grapes are fully ripe. People are drunken and deceived by the man of sin that is already revealed.

What are they drunk with? The blood of the Saints that they have beheaded.
Revelation 17:6
6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

The Antichrist was already revealed and making war with the Saints. Now they are all reserved for judgment and wrath.

 

[webdog]

The Antichrist was already revealed and making war with the Saints. Now they are all reserved for judgment and wrath.

...not the church age saints. Scripture states that we (the church ) are not appointed unto wrath.

For those who are mid trib, pre wrath or post trib...what is the logical reason that we would be subject to God's wrath against humanity for rejecting Him...when we have not rejected Him

 

[Palatka51]

...not the church age saints. Scripture states that we (the church ) are not appointed unto wrath.

For those who are mid trib, pre wrath or post trib...what is the logical reason that we would be subject to God's wrath against humanity for rejecting Him...when we have not rejected Him

Tribulation is not God's Wrath.

Matthew 13:21-23
21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

 

[Palatka51]

After Tribulation comes Wrath.
Matt 24:29&30
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[webdog]

Tribulation is not God's Wrath.

Matthew 13:21-23
21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

The Great Tribulation is. The tribulation you are referring to is the tribulation believers go through for the sake of the Gospel. Since the entire world are not believers, the GT is God's wrath for rejecting His Son.

 

[Palatka51]

John 16:33
33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[Palatka51]

The Great Tribulation is. The tribulation you are referring to is the tribulation believers go through for the sake of the Gospel. Since the entire world are not believers, the GT is God's wrath for rejecting His Son.

I beg to differ webdog, it is God's calling to a Church that is worldly and unconcerned for the gospel.

Rev 3:15-19
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

1 Peter 1:13-14
13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

This judgment must begin at the house of God before Wrath is poured out on the world.

1 Peter 4:17&18
17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

 

[Palatka51]

More on Tribulation.

Acts 14;22
22Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:1-5
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Romans 8:35-39
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


2 Thessalonians 1:4
4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Lest I weary you with so many verses, Tribulation is used in connection with persecution. When the Word of God speaks of the Tribulation of the Saints He is speaking of a great persecution such as was never before.

 

[webdog]

I beg to differ webdog, it is God's calling to a Church that is worldly and unconcerned for the gospel.

Rev 3:15-19
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

1 Peter 1:13-14
13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

This judgment must begin at the house of God before Wrath is poured out on the world.

1 Peter 4:17&18
17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Laodicea was a church in name only. The "buy from Me's" are an offer of salvation. This church was putrid (enough that it wanted to make Jesus vomit), but it was not a true church. Lukewarm has nothing to do with so-so believers. It is the reference to the 2 springs that converged there making the water warm, murky and good for nothing (a comination of the hot, medicinal springs and cool, refreshing streams meeting).

 

[Ed Edwards]

Tribulation is not God's Wrath.

Matthew 13:21-23
21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

There are at least five types of Biblical Tribulation (tribulation):
-------------------------------
Joh 16:33 (KJV1611 Edition):
These things I haue spoken vnto you,
that in me ye might haue peace, in the world
ye shall haue tribulation: but be of good cheare,
I haue ouercome the world.

Here is my essay from the early 1990s about
Tribulation:

---------------------------------
The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, affliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointments,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity, torture
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's expulsion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millennial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
#4 and #5 are measured in time units.

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompense in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:
---------------------------------

Surely one or more of these different 'tribulations' is the Wrath of God'.
#4 and #5 are time periods - these are two different 'wrath's of God. Anothre Wrath of God will be levied eternally on the unrepentant at the Great White Throne Judgement of Revelation 20.

 

[Palatka51]

Sorry but This is to pertinent to ignore.

Revelation 7:9,14-17
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; ------
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

 

[Ed Edwards]

"tribulations" in nKJV:
Numbered tribulation comments refer to the numbers (nothing sacred about the numbers) of the tribulations in the post at the top of the page.


1Sa 10:19 (nKJV):
But you have today rejected your God, who Himself saved you from all your adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to Him, 'No, set a king over us!' Now therefore, present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes and by your clans."

3,000 years before the Tribulation Period, has to be:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Ac 14:22 (nKJV):
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God."

The Kingdom of God is with us, not all are persecuted,
must be the most likly:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Ac 20:23 (nKJV):
except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Most likely: Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

2Co 6:4 (nKJV):
But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses,

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Eph 3:13 (nKJV):
Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

Most likely: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

2Th 1:4 (nKJV):
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Heb 10:33 (nKJV):
partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


"tribulation" in nKJV:

1Sa 26:24 (nKJV):
And indeed, as your life was valued much this day in my eyes, so let my life be valued much in the eyes of the Lord, and let Him deliver me out of all tribulation."

1. tribulation due to the human condition>
surley not 3,000+ years before futurists Trib Period
or 1,000+ years before before a-mill Trib Period

Mt 13:21 (nKJV):
yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Most likely:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Mt 24:9 (nKJV):
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

Got to be:
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Mt 24:21 (nKJV):
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This follows the AOD, it is: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist


Mt 24:29 (nKJV):
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

After 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist, the Lord will come in power and glory to
defeat the Antichrist.

Mr 4:17 (nKJV):
and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.

Most likely: 2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom, which is persecution

Mr 13:19 (nKJV):
For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

This is a paralell Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) passage
refering to: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Mr 13:24 (nKJV):
"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

MOD, again: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Joh 16:33 (nKJV):
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

One of these: 1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
but not: 4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Ro 2:9 (nKJV):
tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Most likely, 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happen to everybody

Ro 8:35 (nKJV):
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Could be any of the first three

Ro 12:12 (nKJV):
rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;

Most likely,m 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happens to everybody

2Co 1:4 (nKJV):
who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

Most likely is the most common: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

2Co 7:4 (nKJV):
Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul was NOT in the tribulation periods.

1Th 3:4 (nKJV):
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

Paul suffered from the three conditions:
Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods:



2Th 1:6 (nKJV):
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

Why should God wait until the Tribulation Periods
to "repay"? Probably: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Re 1:9 (nKJV):
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods

Re 2:9 (nKJV):
I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


Re 2:10 (nKJV):
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Likely: Could be any of the first three:
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Re 2:22 (nKJV):
Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Likely 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Re 7:14 (nKJV):
And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist.
These avoid great tribulation by being jerked out
of the world when Jesus comes to get His own.

 

[webdog]

Sorry but This is to pertinent to ignore.

Revelation 7:9,14-17
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; ------
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Tribulation saints are not the church, in the same way pre-Christ (pentecost) saints are not the church. The church has a difinitive beginning (pentecost) and end on earth (rapture).

 

[Ed Edwards]

The Pretribulation rapture2 (resurrection1 followed immediately by a rapture1) is
called various things in the Bible:

Mat 24:31 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And he shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect, from the foure windes, and from the one ende of the heauens vnto the other.

2Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ, and by our assembling vnto him,
2Th 2:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
Now wee beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ, and by our gathering together vnto him,

have to go take a kid for a head CAT Scan

 

[Palatka51]

Laodicea was a church in name only. The "buy from Me's" are an offer of salvation. This church was putrid (enough that it wanted to make Jesus vomit), but it was not a true church. Lukewarm has nothing to do with so-so believers. It is the reference to the 2 springs that converged there making the water warm, murky and good for nothing (a comination of the hot, medicinal springs and cool, refreshing streams meeting).

This is the only Church that Jesus warns of his impending return.

Rev 3:20&21
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Looks to me that at least someone has had their gold refined.

 

[Palatka51]

Tribulation saints are not the church, in the same way pre-Christ (pentecost) saints are not the church. The church has a difinitive beginning (pentecost) and end on earth (rapture).

Sorry webdog but I must beg for scripture that equivocates such teaching. If you do so I will humble myself to them.

 

[webdog]

This is the only Church that Jesus warns of his impending return.

Rev 3:20&21
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Looks to me that at least someone has had their gold refined.

Yes..."to him that overcometh". Overcometh what? Not having "opened the door" up to that point. The rapture has not happened at this point, either.

 

[Palatka51]

I pray day and night that there will be a catching up before world wide persecution/tribulation but this is not the way the scripture is opening up to me. I find no verse anywhere that plainly speaks to a removal of the Church before tribulation. Before wrath? Yes. Tribulation/great tribulation? None.

Here is what I find relating to Wrath.

To the Pharisee Jesus said this.

Matt 3:7&8
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

John 3:36
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 1:18
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

And there are many more that refer to wrath of God on ungodliness

Then there are these that give us the Glorious Promises that we will not go through His Wrath.

Romans 5:9
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1Thes 1:10
10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Thes 5:9-11
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

And there are more verses that give us these promises.

However experiencing tribulation/great tribulation is something that the Church will endure.

 

[Palatka51]

have to go take a kid for a head CAT Scan

Sounds serious, I'll be praying that things are alright until your return.

Mel