Means to submit to His leading, guidance, promptings and to honor and obey the scriptures
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What is "Walking in the Spirit"?
- Thread starter Tenchi
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Tenchi
Active Member
I do not believe Paul is making a distinction between walking in the Spirit and living in the Spirit.
In our speech and writings we typically use different words to say the same thing. In normal speech and writing people tend to avoid repeating words or phrases to convey a thought. It's just awkward.
Unless you are a Democrat, then it's common.
Seriously, though. Think about it.
"I have an amalgamation of chemicals. What do I do with this amalgamation of chemicals?" vs "I have an amalgamation of chemicals. What do I do with this mixture?".
It's hard for me to see that what you're saying is the case. If Paul had meant essentially the same thing when he wrote of living and walking in the Spirit, he'd have needed only to write of one or the other state, not both. What's more, the language of Galatians 5:25 is very plain that two different states are in view:
Galatians 5:25
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
"Also" conveys the meaning "in addition to," or "as well," and serves in the verse above to add "walking in the Spirit" to "living in the Spirit." The term of contingency, "if," also confounds the idea that Paul meant to indicate that living and walking in the Spirit were essentially the same thing. "If" makes "live by the Spirit" a sort of necessary predicate for "walk in the Spirit," but this forming of a functional order serves to distinguish the two from each other rather than make them synonymous.
So, then, your grammatical analogy doesn't appear to me to fit with what Paul wrote in the verse above.
Tenchi
Active Member
How do you do this? Especially in light of Romans 7:14-24, Galatians 5:17, "I just do it" isn't a good answer. Imagine saying this to the Christian man who's addicted to porn, or drugs, or overeating. His whole problem is that he can't "just do it," right?
I disagree. For an example, read a few Psalms.
Tenchi
Active Member
??? I have. All of them. Many times. How about you?
You know what I never see in the Psalms? Anyone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit in the post-Calvary, New Covenant way (1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19-20; He. 7-10:21; 13:5; Ro. 8:9-14). The Spirit came and went from people, yes, but he never made of anyone in the OT a "temple" as he does now of every truly born-again person. It is comparing apples to oranges, then, I think, to make the pre-Calvary situation concerning life in the Spirit a pattern for New Covenant born-again believers.
Yes, several times as well.
Have you noticed that in the Psalms the psalmist often says the same thing in different ways?
Tenchi
Active Member
Are you suggesting that I can better understand what Paul plainly states in Galatians 5:25 by a general inspection of the Psalms? I hope not. You don't seem to recognize that Paul is not actually doing what you are asserting he's doing in the verse. I've already explained why in my last post to you. Simply referring me to the Psalms doesn't address the things I pointed out from the language of the verse in question.
No, although it would not hurt.
Psalm 119, Psalm 27, and Psalm 122 are partcilarly applicable.
I am suggesting that "walking in/by" the Spirit is the same as "living in" the Spirit.
I am still learning to have to make sure to keep myself away from certain situations that would cause me to face temptation, and to train myself to submit and say no once feel the conviction of/by the Holy Spirit. Also very good to get a trusted accountability partner, someone willing to get "in your face" if needed
Tenchi
Active Member
I understand what you're suggesting. If the literary device (stating the same thing in various ways) that you say exists in Galatians 5:25 actually existed in the verse, it might be interesting to see other examples of the device in Scripture, I guess. But both the word "if" and "also" in the verse confound the argument you're putting forward regarding how to understand the verse. If "walking in the Spirit" is identical to "living in the Spirit," as you say, then, if one is doing the former (as a necessary feature of being born-again), one doesn't have to be instructed to do the latter. But the term "also" clearly implies that "walking in the Spirit" is in addition to "living in the Spirit" from which one can quite reasonably infer that the two states are not the same. And, as I already pointed out, the term of contingency - "if" - further emphasizes that there is a difference between living and walking in the Spirit, the latter possible only if the former is first the case. This order of things makes no sense to articulate if the two things - living and walking - are essentially the same. Finally, "living in the Spirit" and "walking in the Spirit" describe two distinctly different things: The general state of being in the Spirit and a particular manner of so being. For these reasons, the verse is terribly misleading and confusing, if Paul meant to convey in it what you've asserted. So far, you haven't offered any reasonable rebuttal to these observations, just flat disagreement and your preferred reading of the verse, which don't do anything to advance your view or dissolve mine.
Tenchi
Active Member
If you'd like some help in understanding how to "walk in the Spirit," check out my substack page: The Deeper Faith Monologue | Jonathan Hay | Substack
I dont need a rebuttal. You asked what we thought. I think "walking in the Spirit" and "living in the Spirit" are the same. You think they are different.
Since we live by the Spirit let us walk in the Spirit. I get the readon you'd say these are different. I can see perhaps different aspects (we are reborn, snd should act in accordance with that rebirth). But I see this as acting in accordance with your calling. We struggle with the "old man". Win that struggle.
Every disagreement is not an argument.
Tenchi
Active Member
Yes, we understand what Paul wrote differently. But the difference is such that your view of Galatians 5:25 is, if not a rebuttal of my view, at least a near contradiction of it. But the reasons for our views on Paul's words are not equal, I think, and I've shown why. The language of the verse simply and obviously doesn't support what you're asserting it does. You can just flatly deny that what I've shown from the verse is there and hold to your view regardless, but this demonstrates a less than careful handling of God's word, I think. If you're content to handle Scripture in such a way, so be it. But I'm not obliged to accept your view as sharing interpretive parity with my own view in the text of Galatians 5:25. I suppose I find it very...odd that in spite of the plainness of the verse, you persist in maintaining a view of it that it clearly doesn't support.
Your rendering of Galatians 5:25 here misses out the crucial import of the word "also."
An expanded version: If it is the case that we are presently living in the Spirit (If we live in the Spirit), then, in addition to doing so (also), let us walk in the Spirit, too.
What is very obviously not being indicated is: If we live in the Spirit let us also live in the Spirit.
Surely, you can see that this is a silly, unnecessary statement that has no companion in anything else Paul wrote in the NT.
It's startling to see how centrally you position yourself in your statement here, rather than the Spirit.
As Jesus said, we can do nothing apart from him (Jn. 15:5b). We come to God for salvation utterly without strength (Ro. 5:6), in bondage to the World, the Flesh and the devil (Eph. 2:1-3), laboring under a carnal, fleshly mind that is at enmity with God (Ro. 8:5-8). And so, God redeems us and then, in the Person of the Holy Spirit, works into us all we need to "work out our salvation" (Phil. 2:12-13; Ro. 8:9-14). We are constantly receiving from God, from the Spirit of God, what we don't possess naturally, enabled by the Spirit to live in the supernatural way God calls us to do.
2 Corinthians 3:17-18
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
Ephesians 3:14-16
14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,
16 that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Romans 8:13-14
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
And so on (Phil. 1:6; 4:13; 1 Thess. 5:23-24; Ju. 1:24-25; Jn. 14:26; 16;8-14; 1 Co. 2:10-16; 2 Co. 1:3-5, etc.).
All of the Spirit's enabling and transforming of the believer ("working in" - Phil. 2:13), is predicated on "walking in the Spirit," however. Many are the Christians I've encountered over the last five decades, though, who "live in the Spirit" but have never "walked in the Spirit." What's the difference? It's the difference between relationship and fellowship. See the story of the Prodigal Son (Lu. 15:11-32). See 2 Corinthians 13:14, 1 John 1:3 and Revelation 3:20. It's the difference between Psalms 36:7-9 and Psalm 22:1-2. It's the difference between being forgiven and adopted by God and being controlled and filled by Him, between being saved by God and constantly submitted to Him, between knowing about God and enjoying Him in intimate communion every day.
That depends upon what you mean by "argument." In the philosophical sense, disagreements necessarily entail argument, which is to say some form of syllogistic reasoning that justifies one's view. Without such reasoned warrant for one's perspective, that perspective is nothing more than personal opinion, holding little to no factual or logical weight whatever and thus not worth sharing, really.
My point is that there is a difference in application but not meaning....kinda like saying "be yourself". We live in the Spirit so we ought to walk in the Spirit.
By "argument" I mean defending ones view while objecting to another's. You asked our opinion of "walk in the Spirit" and "live in the Spirit". We have different opinions but I am not interested in trying to change your view.
Walking in the Spirit means to stop trying to keep the law, and to seek justification by faith in Christ.
Galatians 2:17-19 NLT - [17] But suppose we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then we are found guilty because we have abandoned the law. Would that mean Christ has led us into sin? Absolutely not! [18] Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down. [19] For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law--I stopped trying to meet all its requirements--so that I might live for God.
Galatians 2:17-19 NLT - [17] But suppose we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then we are found guilty because we have abandoned the law. Would that mean Christ has led us into sin? Absolutely not! [18] Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down. [19] For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law--I stopped trying to meet all its requirements--so that I might live for God.
Tenchi
Active Member
I don't understand what you're saying here...
It seems to me that intrinsic to holding and offering the views you have is the obligation to defend them, at least. You don't have to do this in order to persuade someone else to your view but merely to provide reasonable warrant for your view. If your view on "walking in the Spirit" doesn't really have any good warrant, well, so be it. We all have views like this, I suppose. I don't understand how you reasonably arrive at your view, but, as you say, inasmuch as you're not trying to persuade me to it, I don't need to understand why you hold your particular view.
Tenchi
Active Member
Thanks for your comment.
What do you mean by "stop trying to keep the law"? You don't mean antinomianism, right? And how does one who is "living in the Spirit," which is to say, born-again spiritually by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 3:3-7; Ro. 8:9-14; Tit. 3:5), "seek justification by faith in Christ"? They've already done so, which is why they're "living in the Spirit," right?
Nah. We are not obligated to defend our views.
Imagine if you were obligated to defend every belief or opinion you held. "Why do you believe the earth is round?", Why do you believe the grass is green?", "Why don't you like boiled squash?", "Why are rock lobster tails not real lobster tails?".
Of those, I may choose to explain that rock lobster is spiney lobster whi h is not a true lobster (not even related).
But that would be out of choice, not obligation.
Had the OP asked for a debate rather than an opinion then I would have some type of obligation.
Tenchi
Active Member
I'm not talking about generally-accepted views like the ones you've suggested here. Obviously, there is no reason or obligation to defend these sorts of beliefs/views. The view you've asserted about Galatians 5:25, however, is not of this sort, I think. In fact, your view appears to defy the language of the verse pretty directly. And so, in this instance where what has been put forward is...unusual, it does require justification.
I didn't think I'd have to explicitly stipulate that unfounded opinion was unwanted. This goes without saying, it seems to me...
Tenchi
Active Member
Galatians 5:22-26
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
Paul explained in this passage what the "fruit" of the Spirit is, emphasizing the spiritual source and nature of this fruit, reminding his brethren that their flesh (intellect, willpower, physical body) has been crucified with Christ (Ro. 6:1-11; Col. 2:10-14; 3:1-4; Ga. 2:20), and from it's passions and desires (directed by the Old Self - Ro. 6:6) they have been separated (i.e. "crucified"). And so, they are then able to "walk in/by the Spirit" (not merely "live in/by the Spirit"), eschewing boasting, contention and envy among themselves.
Paul locates the source of such "fruitful," flesh-crucified, "walking" in the Holy Spirit, not in the strenuous labor of the individual believer, but in the life and work of the Spirit. It's by the Spirit they "live" spiritually (Tit. 3:5-7; Ro. 8:9-14; 1 Jn. 4:13); it's the Spirit's fruit that ought to be produced in their life (Eph. 5:9; 1 Jn. 3:14) ; it's in/by the Spirit (by his strengthening, in particular) that they "walk" (Phil. 2:13; 4:13; Eph. 3:16; 6:10; 1 Thess. 5:22-23; Ju. 1:24-25) as holy children of God.
A great companion passage to Galatians 5:22-26 is found in Romans 8:9-14:
Romans 8:9-14
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
There's no mistaking that Paul anchored Christian living, not in the Self-effort of the believer, but in the life and work of the Holy Spirit. In this passage in from his letter to the brethren at Rome, he communicates the same things he did in his epistle to the Galatian believers:
- Spiritual life is the product of being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. (vs. 9-11)
- Through the indwelling Spirit, the believer has been united with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection (Ro. 6:1-11), and thus separated from the "Old Self" (Ro. 6:6), and under no obligation to live according to the flesh (vs. 11-12).
- By the Spirit, the Christian puts to death the deeds of the body (vs. 13).
- By the Spirit, the born-again person is led (i.e. directed and controlled by the Holy Spirit (vs. 14; Ga. 5:18; Ro. 6:13-22; 12:1) .
2 Corinthians 3:16-18
16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Here, too, Paul plainly anchors spiritual living (and walking) in the life and work of the Holy Spirit (as opposed to the self-effort of the individual believer). When a person "turns to the Lord," He takes away the "veil" upon their heart, liberating them from the bondage to the Old Covenant and futile righteousness-by-law-keeping. As the Christian focuses their mind upon Christ, considering his unveiled glory, the Spirit transforms them, conforming them to their focus.
How different Paul's teaching is from the typical Boot Strap theology that circulates among so many churches today! The Spirit changes us, we who cannot change ourselves, making us, by his power, who he wants us to be. To those who think otherwise, Paul very directly posed this question:
Galatians 3:2-3
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
Paul explained in this passage what the "fruit" of the Spirit is, emphasizing the spiritual source and nature of this fruit, reminding his brethren that their flesh (intellect, willpower, physical body) has been crucified with Christ (Ro. 6:1-11; Col. 2:10-14; 3:1-4; Ga. 2:20), and from it's passions and desires (directed by the Old Self - Ro. 6:6) they have been separated (i.e. "crucified"). And so, they are then able to "walk in/by the Spirit" (not merely "live in/by the Spirit"), eschewing boasting, contention and envy among themselves.
Paul locates the source of such "fruitful," flesh-crucified, "walking" in the Holy Spirit, not in the strenuous labor of the individual believer, but in the life and work of the Spirit. It's by the Spirit they "live" spiritually (Tit. 3:5-7; Ro. 8:9-14; 1 Jn. 4:13); it's the Spirit's fruit that ought to be produced in their life (Eph. 5:9; 1 Jn. 3:14) ; it's in/by the Spirit (by his strengthening, in particular) that they "walk" (Phil. 2:13; 4:13; Eph. 3:16; 6:10; 1 Thess. 5:22-23; Ju. 1:24-25) as holy children of God.
A great companion passage to Galatians 5:22-26 is found in Romans 8:9-14:
Romans 8:9-14
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
There's no mistaking that Paul anchored Christian living, not in the Self-effort of the believer, but in the life and work of the Holy Spirit. In this passage in from his letter to the brethren at Rome, he communicates the same things he did in his epistle to the Galatian believers:
- Spiritual life is the product of being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. (vs. 9-11)
- Through the indwelling Spirit, the believer has been united with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection (Ro. 6:1-11), and thus separated from the "Old Self" (Ro. 6:6), and under no obligation to live according to the flesh (vs. 11-12).
- By the Spirit, the Christian puts to death the deeds of the body (vs. 13).
- By the Spirit, the born-again person is led (i.e. directed and controlled by the Holy Spirit (vs. 14; Ga. 5:18; Ro. 6:13-22; 12:1) .
2 Corinthians 3:16-18
16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Here, too, Paul plainly anchors spiritual living (and walking) in the life and work of the Holy Spirit (as opposed to the self-effort of the individual believer). When a person "turns to the Lord," He takes away the "veil" upon their heart, liberating them from the bondage to the Old Covenant and futile righteousness-by-law-keeping. As the Christian focuses their mind upon Christ, considering his unveiled glory, the Spirit transforms them, conforming them to their focus.
How different Paul's teaching is from the typical Boot Strap theology that circulates among so many churches today! The Spirit changes us, we who cannot change ourselves, making us, by his power, who he wants us to be. To those who think otherwise, Paul very directly posed this question:
Galatians 3:2-3
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
