What is water referring to?

[Jedi Knight]

Jesus told Nick at night "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit". John 3:5 What does water refer to here in this passage to you? :type:

 

[Winman]

Jesus told Nick at night "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit". John 3:5 What does water refer to here in this passage to you? :type:

Double post, see post #3.

 

[Winman]

Jesus told Nick at night "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit". John 3:5 What does water refer to here in this passage to you? :type:

I believe this is speaking of God's word. We have the verse that speaks of "the washing of water by the word" (Eph 5:26).

Notice when Jesus compared the Holy Spirit to the wind and said we could hear it.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, AND THOU HEAREST THE SOUND THEREOF, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit.

How can we hear the Spirit? By hearing the word of God.

 

[Old Union Brother]

As we think about the water in John 3:5 consider the following:

Zechariah spoke of a fountain being opened and living waters that shall go out of Jerusalem
(Zec 13:1) In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

(Zec 14:8) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Isaiah spoke of water out of the wells of salvation
(Isa 12:3) Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation

and in Revelations
(Rev 22:1) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Sounds like living water that brings salvation to me!

 

[Robert Snow]

I think this refers to physical birth, but I'm not dogmatic about it.

 

[convicted1]

As we think about the water in John 3:5 consider the following:

Zechariah spoke of a fountain being opened and living waters that shall go out of Jerusalem
(Zec 13:1) In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

(Zec 14:8) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Isaiah spoke of water out of the wells of salvation
(Isa 12:3) Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation

and in Revelations
(Rev 22:1) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Sounds like living water that brings salvation to me!

Here are some more good'uns to add to your good'uns, Bro. OUB!!

John 4:4 And he must needs go through Samaria.

5 Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.

6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.

7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.

8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)

9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Song of Sol. 4:10 How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse! how much better is thy love than wine! and the smell of thine ointments than all spices!

11 Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon.

12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

13 Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard,

14 Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices:

15 A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon.

16 Awake, O north wind; and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits.

Jeremiah 17:13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

Jesus is the "Living water" that we drink when we are thirsty!! Praise His sweet name!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I voted 'Other.'
I believe our Lord's reference to 'Water and Spirit' should be understood in the light of Ezek 36:24ff, Psalm 51:5-11 and Titus 3:5.

This is explained in more detail here:-
http://marprelate.wordpress.com/2010/07/12/the-new-birth-4-its-nature/

Steve

 

[Zenas]

It was universally held that John 3:5 refers to water baptism from the 1st Century until Huldrych Zwingli in the16th Century. The church fathers who expressly held to this view include Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Cyprian of Carthage, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasius, Basil the Great, Ambrose of Milan, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysotom, Gregory of Nazianz, and Augustine. I have not discovered anyone who held another view during that period of time. There are those who pay little attention to historical development of Christian doctrines but they are missing out on the wisdom of the ages by their failure to do so. I pay attention to these things and show them great deference unless they are manifestly contrary to scripture.

 

[Tom Butler]

I believe this is speaking of God's word. We have the verse that speaks of "the washing of water by the word" (Eph 5:26).

That's what I think, too.

 

[jbh28]

Those that say that is means water baptism, are you saying that one must be water baptized to be saved?



An incorrect interpretation is still an incorrect interpretation no matter how many people have that interpretation. Baptism isn't even in the context of the passage. Nothing is mentioned of baptism. What is mentioned is "water" and "spirit." Most would interpret "born of spirit" as regeneration. I have debated Catholics before and they never can come up with any contextual support for water baptism. All they can do is say "well this guy here believed it" or "it was believed this way for years." Two major logical fallacies are here. Appeal to tradition and appeal to popularity.


Now, I originally had said that it meant physical birth. This is because Jesus doesn't mention "born of water" until after Nicodemus says something about physical birth. Jesus originally mentions that one must be born again(or born from above). In studying on how the term "water" is used, I have moved more to the non physical water or "living water" that is mentioned in John 4.

I have no problem with one that has either physical birth interpretation or the living water interpretation, I do have a problem when people add to salvation by putting in works(water baptism) as requirements to be saved.

 

[walkbyfaith]

Those that say that is means water baptism, are you saying that one must be water baptized to be saved?



An incorrect interpretation is still an incorrect interpretation no matter how many people have that interpretation. Baptism isn't even in the context of the passage. Nothing is mentioned of baptism. What is mentioned is "water" and "spirit." Most would interpret "born of spirit" as regeneration. I have debated Catholics before and they never can come up with any contextual support for water baptism. All they can do is say "well this guy here believed it" or "it was believed this way for years." Two major logical fallacies are here. Appeal to tradition and appeal to popularity.


Now, I originally had said that it meant physical birth. This is because Jesus doesn't mention "born of water" until after Nicodemus says something about physical birth. Jesus originally mentions that one must be born again(or born from above). In studying on how the term "water" is used, I have moved more to the non physical water or "living water" that is mentioned in John 4.

I have no problem with one that has either physical birth interpretation or the living water interpretation, I do have a problem when people add to salvation by putting in works(water baptism) as requirements to be saved.

I have not done any indepth study of this particular passage. I did answer water baptism, based solely on Mark 16:16, a verse that I had read again just minutes before voting on this poll.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Its not inconceivable that I am wrong, however. Wouldnt be the first time, nor the last.

 

[Jedi Knight]

I think it's God word too. I think of 1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[Zenas]

Those that say that is means water baptism, are you saying that one must be water baptized to be saved?

If you take John 3:5 as referring to water baptism, then you have to conclude that baptism is an essential element in the salvation process.

An incorrect interpretation is still an incorrect interpretation no matter how many people have that interpretation. Baptism isn't even in the context of the passage. Nothing is mentioned of baptism. What is mentioned is "water" and "spirit." Most would interpret "born of spirit" as regeneration. I have debated Catholics before and they never can come up with any contextual support for water baptism. All they can do is say "well this guy here believed it" or "it was believed this way for years." Two major logical fallacies are here. Appeal to tradition and appeal to popularity.

I wouldn’t say those are logical fallacies, and popularity certainly isn’t an issue here. In fact, this is a very unpopular idea among most people I know. As for tradition, I believe scripture commends us to observe tradition. Moreover, it’s just good common sense. Although I’m in the seventh decade of my life, I still find it helpful to consult people who have been around longer than I have.

As for contextual support for baptism here, I would direct you to the very next thing after the Nicodemus discourse. In 3:22 it says: “After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing.” So immediately after the Nicodemus meeting, the next thing we see Jesus doing is baptizing. Although the Bible is silent on this, I have always thought this was the time when Jesus baptized His disciples. Moving on into John 4, Jesus offers the woman living water. I believe He was here referring to baptism as well.

Now, I originally had said that it meant physical birth. This is because Jesus doesn't mention "born of water" until after Nicodemus says something about physical birth. Jesus originally mentions that one must be born again(or born from above). In studying on how the term "water" is used, I have moved more to the non physical water or "living water" that is mentioned in John 4.

This is the problem you encounter with the exegesis of this verse when you say it doesn’t refer to baptism. You read it and say, “This can’t mean water baptism because that would mean we must be baptized to be saved. So what else could Jesus have meant here?” Then you go searching for other possibilities. Indeed you must do so if you reject baptism as being an essential element of salvation. However, the plain and simple meaning of the verse is that being born of spirit involves being born of water (baptism). This is corroborated by passages such as Romans 6:4, which talks about newness of life following baptism.

 

[kyredneck]

To amplify or paraphrase (or whatever):

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water even the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!

Just mho....

 

[Zenas]

To amplify or paraphrase (or whatever):

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water even the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!

Just mho....

I have seen this in commentaries, usually to show that Jesus was not referring to child birth. However, to my knowledge this rendering of the original text has never showed up in any of the numerous translations that we have.

 

[BobinKy]

More verses on the living water.

For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: (Isaiah 44:3; KJB)

Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. (Isa. 55:1; KJB)

And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. (Isaiah 58:11; KJB)

Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar. (Ezekiel 47:1; KJB)

In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. (John 7:37; KJB)

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. (Rev. 21:6; KJB)​

...Bob

 

[quantumfaith]

Those that say that is means water baptism, are you saying that one must be water baptized to be saved?



An incorrect interpretation is still an incorrect interpretation no matter how many people have that interpretation. Baptism isn't even in the context of the passage. Nothing is mentioned of baptism. What is mentioned is "water" and "spirit." Most would interpret "born of spirit" as regeneration. I have debated Catholics before and they never can come up with any contextual support for water baptism. All they can do is say "well this guy here believed it" or "it was believed this way for years." Two major logical fallacies are here. Appeal to tradition and appeal to popularity.


Now, I originally had said that it meant physical birth. This is because Jesus doesn't mention "born of water" until after Nicodemus says something about physical birth. Jesus originally mentions that one must be born again(or born from above). In studying on how the term "water" is used, I have moved more to the non physical water or "living water" that is mentioned in John 4.

I have no problem with one that has either physical birth interpretation or the living water interpretation, I do have a problem when people add to salvation by putting in works(water baptism) as requirements to be saved.

Uh jbh28, Zenas is baptist according to the profile

 

[Martin Marprelate]

This is an excerpt from my blog article:-

There are two main reasons why I do not believe that the phrase Water and Spirit can refer to baptism, and why I support the Reformed Baptist position given above. Firstly, if baptism is intended by this phrase then that ordinance is absolutely necessary for salvation. ‘Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’. On that basis, the thief on the cross is damned; likewise such groups as the Quakers and the Salvation Army, who do not practise water baptism, are, every single one of them, utterly lost. Yet there is no other Bible text that teaches this. On the contrary, two verses (1Peter 1:23; James 1:18) ascribe the New Birth not to baptism, but to the Word. Moreover Paul (1Cor. 1:17) wrote that, ‘Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel’, a strange thing to say if baptism is so very necessary to salvation.

Secondly, I cannot believe that our Lord would be reinforcing what is the chief error of Pharisaism; the idea that outward purification can bring about inward cleansing. As we have seen, Pharisees like Nicodemus spent all their time in ritual washings and cleansings. Is it really likely that the Lord Jesus would be saying to him, “What you need, Nicodemus, more than anything else, is another ritual washing”? If that was our Lord’s meaning, then why was Nicodemus so dumbfounded by it? More ceremonial, outward cleansings would have been right up his street, water off a duck’s back in more ways than one! No, Nicodemus’ problem was not on the outside but the inside. “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness” (Mark 7:21f). Can an external washing purify a man from inward sin and depravity? Of course not! “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also. …….. For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness” (Matt. 23:25ff). In the Shakespeare play, Lady Macbeth cries out, “Will these hands ne’er be cleansed?” No matter how many times she washed them, the blood of her sin still seemed to stain her hands. No outward washing could make her inwardly clean. The cleansing she needed would have had to deal with her guilt within.

So if the expression Water and Spirit does not mean baptism, what does it mean? Two views are generally put forward. The first, and probably the most popular is that the ‘water’ refers to the normal birth process in which the infant is surrounded by amniotic fluid in the womb. Therefore, according to this view, the Lord Jesus is saying, “Nicodemus, a natural birth such as every human has is not sufficient for you. You also need a Spiritual rebirth if you are to enter the kingdom of heaven.” There is nothing wrong with this view, save that nowhere else in the Bible is human birth ever associated with water. One needs to be cautious in adopting an interpretation of one text of the Bible which cannot be corroborated by at least one other. Scripture must always interpret Scripture.

I am therefore inclined to support the second view, which is supported by many exegetes, including Bishop Ryle and John Murray. As usual, our clue lies in our text: ‘Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do you not know these things?”’ (John 3:10). What our Lord is saying is that if Nicodemus was such a great Old Testament teacher, he would know what He was talking about instead of being so totally confused and dumbfounded. Therefore there must be some reference in the Hebrew Scriptures to the New Birth and to Water and Spirit which would have helped Nicodemus to understand; otherwise our Lord’s rebuke would have been unfair. With this in mind let us consider the following verses:-

‘For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take your heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them’ (Ezek 36:24ff).

“Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts, and in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom. Purge [N.I.V., ‘cleanse’] me with hyssop and I shall be clean; wash me and I shall be whiter than snow ……..Hide Your face from my sins, and blot out my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me (Psalm 51:6,7,9,10).

Here, in these two texts, we surely get a preview of the work of God, the Holy Spirit, in the New Birth. It is a two-fold work of water and Spirit: an inward cleansing from sin and idolatry, and a renewal of the heart and spirit for future obedience. That it is a spiritual cleansing rather than baptism that is meant in these passages is indicated by the mention of hyssop in Psalm 51. This is not some ancient Hebrew soap, as I first thought when I read the Psalm as a very young Christian, but rather the sprig of a plant. On the day of the Passover, the Israelites were instructed (Exod.12:22) to dip the hyssop in the blood of the slain Passover lamb and sprinkle it on the lintel and the doorposts of their houses. Therefore, to be cleansed with hyssop is to be washed in the blood of the Lamb (Heb.9:11ff; Rev. 7:14). No outward ablution could ever cleanse us from moral ‘filthiness and idolatry’. We need a cleansing which works from within.

In the New Testament, one gets an inkling of this two-fold process in verses such as 1Cor. 6:11 or Eph. 5:26, but the clearest expression is found in Titus 3:3-5. Here Paul has been telling Titus not to be too harsh to the Cretan converts, but to show a little gentleness and humility. ‘For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another…..’ that’s what Paul and Titus were like before they were born again. ‘…..But when the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit’. What is the nature of the New Birth? It is a birth of Water and Spirit; the washing away of indwelling sin and corruption, and renewal by God, the Holy Spirit.

Steve

 

[Zenas]

This is an excerpt from my blog article:-
Steve

Martin, the last six paragraphs of your blog article are excellent. However, they are a non sequitur to the first two paragraphs because they actually support baptismal regeneration. The Ezekiel 36 and Psalm 51 passages foreshadow, indeed demonstrate, the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit through the application of water. This is a sacrament, Martin! It’s scriptural! Wrap your mind around it and believe! The water doesn’t do the cleansing. The Holy Spirit acting through the application of water does the cleansing. Why does it work that way? We don’t know but the Bible says it does. Indeed that is what Paul was telling Titus in Titus 5:3. “The washing of regeneration” is water baptism, just like Ananias saying to Saul, “Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.”

Thank you for sharing the article.

 

[TCassidy]

The answer is very simple. Just read the next verse! John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

The best commentary on the bible is the bible!

Born once, born of water, born of the flesh.

Born again, born from above, born of the Spirit.

Seems patently simple to me.