What Is Wrong With The Doctrine Of Election?

[Frogman]

This is a good sounding post at first reading it, but there are many who are calling on God but not through Christ and these I do not believe are saved, do you?

The bottom line is that God has an elect people, we do not know them, but God does and ALL of these will be brought to knowledge of salvation (which is all inclusive of deliverance eternal, in time, of justification, of redemption, which all is through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus), apart from this redemption, a man is a man, born at enmity with God and not growing into that enmity. Man is condemned of God through the kinship of Adam, only by the kinsman redeemer is he purchased from the market place of sin, his is the joy of knowing that he is eternally bought, that he is bought for a price and that he is loosed from this bondage to the market place.

In no other name is salvation except the name of Christ.

The next time a shout is heard in this country by any who cry out against the public prayer of Christians, listen to what they say, are they offended because men pray to and have faith in God? no, they are offended because the Messiah of God, the anointed in whom Jehovah is satisfied is being called upon for deliverance and this is the offense of the Cross. There is none nowhere who will withstand you or me because of our faith in God, not even an atheist, for this is not rightly one who does not believe God exists, but is one who is without God, they who are offended are offended not by the mention of God's name, but that of Christ. Why?

The name of Christ makes the way to God simply through Himself alone, 'no man can honour the father without honouring the son' 'I and the Father are one' this even is the offense the Jew had with Christ, not that he was performing good works in the name of God, but that he and the Father were one.

Listen to the world, they desire a god, they worship a god, they care not what you call him by name, just do not say to them there is one way to Him, in this is the offense found, not in the name of God.

Just some thoughts
God Bless
bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Graceforever]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Election is a biblical doctrine and if it wasn't the scriptures would not state this truth. Yet some think that the doctrine of election is unjust and God is to not giving everyone an equal chance to be saved. According to election is our Eternal Salvation in our hands?

Graceforever, The doctrine of election may be a biblical doctrine and I don't think anyone who reads the bible can deny that. But what is questionable is the definition of "the Elect". There are several definitions given in Scripture, and not one of them definitive enough to make the doctrine a sure thing.

On the other hand, the Doctrine of Salvation is definitive in that Salvation is available to ALL who believe in Jesus, even on His Name. Scriptures make it clear that Faith alone is what saves one from the Second death, hence, Salvation. Scriptures clearly indicate that Each and ALL of mankind will be individually judged and those with faith in God are spared from the Lake of Fire, while those who do not have faith in God are cast into the Lake of Fire.

The Doctrine of Election, while it may be supported in scripture is not definitive, while the Doctrine of Salvation is most definitive and ALL inclusive. </font>[/QUOTE]The fact remains that no one comes to Jesus, except God first draw him…. All roads lead to Romans, those that he foreknew, etc, etc…. God does use his church for the purpose of saving souls, but the sovereignty of God is, and will always be, unchallenged…. JMHO

 

[Yelsew]

The fact remains that no one comes to Jesus, except God first draw him…. All roads lead to Romans, those that he foreknew, etc, etc…. God does use his church for the purpose of saving souls, but the sovereignty of God is, and will always be, unchallenged…. JMHO

Just what do you think God's Word is and does?
Just what do you think "making disciples, baptising them in the name of...." is and does?
Just what do you think "giving your acquaintences the Gospel message" is and does?
Just what do you think "being Christlike", is and does?

These are ALL ways in which The Father draws men to His Son!'
One method is not effective for all cases, and for some it takes all methods.

 

[Eric B]

This is a good sounding post at first reading it, but there are many who are calling on God but not through Christ and these I do not believe are saved, do you?

I think he meant faith in "God" through Christ (who of course is the true God come in the flesh). Whether people are trying to reach God directly or through Jesus doesn't really have a bearing on what election means. (of course those who try to approach God without Christ are not [now, at least] elect)

 

[William C]

The fact remains that no one comes to Jesus, except God first draw him….

Response by Yelsew:
Just what do you think God's Word is and does?

Amen!!!

This is the point that Calvinists don't seem to get. The means God uses to draw men to himself is not some secret, unknown, inward, irresistable, selective call that the bible never once expounds upon. The means for drawing are clearly taught as being through the WORD.

 

[Yelsew]

Frogman asked,

This is a good sounding post at first reading it, but there are many who are calling on God but not through Christ and these I do not believe are saved, do you?

I think the answer to this question depends on what you believe about Jesus. I believe that Jesus, being the Son of God is God the Son. I believe that there is but one God who is God of all creation, and not just the God of "an elect".

Jesus said, "Believe in the Father? Believe also in me, for I and the Father are one." If you believe that Jesus is the Savior, then you must also believe that the Father is the Savior because they are one. Jesus also said that he only does what the Father tells him to do. Then he went to the cross and died for the sins of the world, not just the sins of "the elect". By doing so, He opened the door of Salvation to all the world.

Believing in Jesus is faith, believing in God the father is also faith, and they are just the same faith, believing in that which is hoped for, thus being the evidence that the unseen exists. Because the Father and the Son are both God along with the Holy Spirit, believing in one is believing in the other.

God's word says that the unbeliever is cast into the lake of Fire. He did not specify that if you do not believe such and such or so and so you will be cast into the Lake of Fire. He said those lacking faith will be cast in to the Lake of Fire.

Frogman, What do you do with those who are old enough to be believers yet too immature to understand a doctrine of election? Are they saved? "Yes, if they are the elect!" would be your answer. Even if they do not believe in God? "of course not!" would be your answer. So what is it then that saves? Is it "election" or is it "Belief in God"? If one can be saved while not being "elected" that sort of shoots down election as a sound doctrine upon which to base salvation.

 

[Frogman]

First of all, I never said that any but the elect would receive eternal salvation. Next, below is what Jesus said in John 14.

4  ¶And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5  Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8  Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

And then in Ch. 16

John 16:20  Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
21  A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

But what about John 3, since we are on the subject that Jesus only requires faith? What of John 3?

3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9  Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10  Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11  Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12  If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Just some things to consider in light of the fact that you have stated that faith is all that is required; There is another passage in the Gospel of John that states something like this: Except a man honor the son, he cannot honor the father, but I couldn't remember where it is at right now, so if some of the brethren do remember it and post it, I would greatly appreciate it.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Frogman]

Frogman, What do you do with those who are old enough to be believers yet too immature to understand a doctrine of election? Are they saved? "Yes, if they are the elect!" would be your answer. Even if they do not believe in God? "of course not!" would be your answer. So what is it then that saves? Is it "election" or is it "Belief in God"? If one can be saved while not being "elected" that sort of shoots down election as a sound doctrine upon which to base salvation.
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Skillfully, nay artfully, proven that God is not the author of confusion, for what man has a faith in God that causes him by the Spirit of God to cry out Abba, Father, that has not the Spirit of Christ? And all this revealed to the hearts of men despite the attempts of the adversary!!! God does not fail to reveal Himself Yelsew, if one is of the elect of God, then they cannot fail to call Christ Lord, the argument you make that God and Christ are one proves this. So, don't try to get psychological on me....ok? The Word of God is not a hallucinogen, (spelling?). It is not the opiate of the people...it is not something that only the weak minded believe.

I have read an article this week that claims that something like 81% of a given denomination do not believe the virgin birth; another 61% do not believe the resurrection; it is time for this denomination to clean house, wouldn't you think, has it not become a den of thieves?

Do not believe what men try to prove. It is all as bro. Bill says....MUMBO JUMBO.
God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Frogman]

Just what do you think God's Word is and does?

This has been proclaimed and affirmed as truth...so let me ask, just what do you brethren think is the Word of God and just what do you think the Word of God does?

Hint: John 1.1 and John 4 note the actions of the Word of God:

John 4:4  ¶And he must needs go through Samaria.
5  Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.
6  Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.
7  There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
8  (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9  Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10  Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

4:4 ¶And he must needs go through Samaria.
We see that HE must needs go through Samaria.

8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
We see that none of HIS disciples were present.

Just what is and what does the Word of God?

Theology from an old hillbilly Frogman.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Yelsew]

(of course those who try to approach God without Christ are not [now, at least] elect)

"Seek and ye shall find, Knock and the door will be opened unto you", Jesus.

 

[Yelsew]

The fact is Bro Dallas, the Woman at the well did not know who or what Jesus is until after he began to use His Word on her. After he gave her knowledge from His word, then she came to realize this man was different than all other men. And she ran to tell the villagers of this different man who knew her innermost secrets.

 

[Yelsew]

Do not believe what men try to prove. It is all as bro. Bill says....MUMBO JUMBO.
God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton

Whew! I hope the door didn't hurt your backside as you slammed it shut!

 

[Yelsew]

Just some things to consider in light of the fact that you have stated that faith is all that is required; There is another passage in the Gospel of John that states something like this: Except a man honor the son, he cannot honor the father, but I couldn't remember where it is at right now, so if some of the brethren do remember it and post it, I would greatly appreciate it.

What are you trying to say? I have not been able to detect your meaning.

Your quoting of John 3 ended prematurely. For in verse 16 Jesus say whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish (is saved to) but have everlasting life, then in verse 18, those who believe are not judged, but those who do not believe are judged already.

So, Jesus says that faith alone saves you!