-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
What is wrong with the modern versions?
- Thread starter Askjo
- Start date
Charles Meadows
New Member
I'll quote from Bruce Metzger, from his "The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration" 1964 Oxford University Press. From page 100:
"The reception accorded Erasmus' edition, the first published edition of the Greek New Testament, was mixed. One one hand it found many purchasers throughout Europe...The second edition became the basis of Luther's German translation. On the other hand, in certain circles Erasmus' work was received with suspicion and even outright hostility. His elegant Latin translation, differing in many respects from Jerome's Vulgate, was regarded as a presumptuous innovation....He included among the philological notes not a few caustic comments aimed at the corrupt lives of many priests. In the words of J. A. Froude,' The clergy's skins were tender from long impunity. They shrieked from the pulpit and platform and made Europe ring with their clamour.' As a result, ' universities, Cambridge and Oxford among them, forbade students to read Erasmus' writings or booksellers to sell them'. "
It should be remembered that Erasmus' edition was not an official publication of the RCC. Cardinal Cisneros (with the blessing of Pope Leo X) had already finished his translation (the Complutensian Polyglot). Erasmus had used a private publisher.
"The reception accorded Erasmus' edition, the first published edition of the Greek New Testament, was mixed. One one hand it found many purchasers throughout Europe...The second edition became the basis of Luther's German translation. On the other hand, in certain circles Erasmus' work was received with suspicion and even outright hostility. His elegant Latin translation, differing in many respects from Jerome's Vulgate, was regarded as a presumptuous innovation....He included among the philological notes not a few caustic comments aimed at the corrupt lives of many priests. In the words of J. A. Froude,' The clergy's skins were tender from long impunity. They shrieked from the pulpit and platform and made Europe ring with their clamour.' As a result, ' universities, Cambridge and Oxford among them, forbade students to read Erasmus' writings or booksellers to sell them'. "
It should be remembered that Erasmus' edition was not an official publication of the RCC. Cardinal Cisneros (with the blessing of Pope Leo X) had already finished his translation (the Complutensian Polyglot). Erasmus had used a private publisher.
ArcticBound
New Member
IF TWO THINGS ARE NOT THE SAME THAN THEY ARE DIFFERENT! You can't take two Bibles that say two different things and say they both are the Preserved WORDS OF GOD!
I can see that I am out numbered by a bunch of KJV haters who have their Myths about what they believe and do not want to hear anything else on the subject. You have been brainwashed to Hate the KING JAMES BIBLE! If you believe what you say about every version is okay then you would have atleast been honest and said the King James is A Good Tranlsation, but you simply HATE the King James Bible. It's been good enough for 400 years and it is still proving itself today!
More Bible perversions will continue to come and go, but the KJV will still be around because it is the INFALLIBLE, INSPIRED, PRESERVED WORD OF GOD IN ENGLISH! It doen't even have a COPYRIGHT, so you can copy it as much as you want without calling up Nelson or Zondervan to get permission. Yes, these Bible Translations are all about money. Find the one that suits you and that's alright!
IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO STILL BELIEVES THE OLD BOOK when it says, Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Pro 30:5 Every word of God [is] pure : he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
DO THE WORDS REALLY MATTER? GOD SURE THINKS SO!
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
The Manuscript in the Trash can (Sinaiticus). You are telling me that the world did not have the Pure WORDS of GOD for 1000 years because it was sitting in a Trash can...what a miracle for GOD to allow it to be discovered!!!
GOD has always made available His PURE PRESERVED WORD down through the ages. Man lives by EVERY WORD of GOD!
The two major manuscripts which underly the modern day versions (Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus) disagree with each other in many different places, but I guess that makes two groups of Manuscripts a Majority against one group (the over 5,000 manuscripts that overwhelmingly agreed with each other)! But yes the 5,000 manuscripts are just considered one group because they all agree with each other! HELLO!
By the way the Codex Vaticanus was found in the POPE's LIBRARY in 1481. Yes, the POPE. I'm afraid to ask what people think of the pope in this forum. The Vaticanus is responsible for over 36,000 changes that appear in our modern versions. It omits the Pastoral Epistles, the Book of Revelation, and it stops at Hebrews 9:14, of course, Hebrews 10 condemns the Catholic office of priesthood.
ON AND ON I COULD GO.....But it seems you all somehow will twist what I say; EVEN THE BIBLE VERSES; I don't know how you do that
I can see that I am out numbered by a bunch of KJV haters who have their Myths about what they believe and do not want to hear anything else on the subject. You have been brainwashed to Hate the KING JAMES BIBLE! If you believe what you say about every version is okay then you would have atleast been honest and said the King James is A Good Tranlsation, but you simply HATE the King James Bible. It's been good enough for 400 years and it is still proving itself today!
More Bible perversions will continue to come and go, but the KJV will still be around because it is the INFALLIBLE, INSPIRED, PRESERVED WORD OF GOD IN ENGLISH! It doen't even have a COPYRIGHT, so you can copy it as much as you want without calling up Nelson or Zondervan to get permission. Yes, these Bible Translations are all about money. Find the one that suits you and that's alright!
IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO STILL BELIEVES THE OLD BOOK when it says, Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Pro 30:5 Every word of God [is] pure : he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
DO THE WORDS REALLY MATTER? GOD SURE THINKS SO!
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
The Manuscript in the Trash can (Sinaiticus). You are telling me that the world did not have the Pure WORDS of GOD for 1000 years because it was sitting in a Trash can...what a miracle for GOD to allow it to be discovered!!!
GOD has always made available His PURE PRESERVED WORD down through the ages. Man lives by EVERY WORD of GOD!
The two major manuscripts which underly the modern day versions (Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus) disagree with each other in many different places, but I guess that makes two groups of Manuscripts a Majority against one group (the over 5,000 manuscripts that overwhelmingly agreed with each other)! But yes the 5,000 manuscripts are just considered one group because they all agree with each other! HELLO!
By the way the Codex Vaticanus was found in the POPE's LIBRARY in 1481. Yes, the POPE. I'm afraid to ask what people think of the pope in this forum. The Vaticanus is responsible for over 36,000 changes that appear in our modern versions. It omits the Pastoral Epistles, the Book of Revelation, and it stops at Hebrews 9:14, of course, Hebrews 10 condemns the Catholic office of priesthood.
ON AND ON I COULD GO.....But it seems you all somehow will twist what I say; EVEN THE BIBLE VERSES; I don't know how you do that
Charles Meadows
New Member
I forgot to add one thing. Erasmus dedicated his to the pope! Guess he didn't want Leo X to get hot over beating the cardinal to the press (and offending some church officials along the way!). By the way, I'm not a KVJ hater; I'm pro KJV!! Just not KJVO!
I never post in this forum, but I have been reading here for nearly 2 years. You are simply mistaken in this statement. I have never seen anyone say they hate the KJV. Over and over again, I have seen those fighting against the KJVOnly view say that they believe the KJV to be a faithful and good translation. In fact, some of those arguing against KJVonly prefer the KJV to all other versions. The KJV is generally held in high regard by those posting on this forum. It is the KJO viewpoint--that the KJV is the only true bible in the English--that is argued against, not the KJV Bible itself.
BTW, I live in the Canadian north--one of the territories--and am wondering if you do too....
Arctic - We have a policy here that we do not call various English translations of the Word of God "perversions". That is evil and will not be tolerated.
We also do not call those who hold your view "heretics". It cuts both ways.
Be careful with what you say, that your words are sweet. You may have to eat them some day.
We also do not call those who hold your view "heretics". It cuts both ways.
Be careful with what you say, that your words are sweet. You may have to eat them some day.
ArcticBound
New Member
Quote:
Pro 30:5 Every word of God [is] pure : he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words , lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God , and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect , throughly furnished unto all good works.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law , till all be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away .
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Quote:
The two major manuscripts which underly the modern day versions (Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus) disagree with each other in many different places, but I guess that makes two groups of Manuscripts a Majority against one group (the over 5,000 manuscripts that overwhelmingly agreed with each other)! But yes the 5,000 manuscripts are just considered one group because they all agree with each other!
By the way the Codex Vaticanus was found in the POPE's LIBRARY in 1481. The Vaticanus is responsible for over 36,000 changes that appear in our modern versions. It omits the Pastoral Epistles, the Book of Revelation, and it stops at Hebrews 9:14; of course, Hebrews 10 condemns the Catholic office of priesthood.
I must make my position clear: I am not a Ruckmanite. I do not believe in Double Inspiration. I believe in One Inspiration, but Eternal PRESERVATION. That's what the Bible teaches. ALL LANGUAGES CAN HAVE THE INSPRIRED, PRESERVED, INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD!(SOME I WOULD SAY DO).
Just because someone believes God can Preserve His Word in a specific language doen't mean he is part of some CULT (It is very hateful to say something like that). I hear this all the time that KJV only people are hateful and legalistic, yes even on this board. The KJV only (not Ruckman) people that I know are some of the most Gracious Men of God and because of their Graciousness they get ripped up and down by those who disagree with them.
Pro 30:5 Every word of God [is] pure : he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words , lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God , and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect , throughly furnished unto all good works.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law , till all be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away .
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Quote:
The two major manuscripts which underly the modern day versions (Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus) disagree with each other in many different places, but I guess that makes two groups of Manuscripts a Majority against one group (the over 5,000 manuscripts that overwhelmingly agreed with each other)! But yes the 5,000 manuscripts are just considered one group because they all agree with each other!
By the way the Codex Vaticanus was found in the POPE's LIBRARY in 1481. The Vaticanus is responsible for over 36,000 changes that appear in our modern versions. It omits the Pastoral Epistles, the Book of Revelation, and it stops at Hebrews 9:14; of course, Hebrews 10 condemns the Catholic office of priesthood.
I must make my position clear: I am not a Ruckmanite. I do not believe in Double Inspiration. I believe in One Inspiration, but Eternal PRESERVATION. That's what the Bible teaches. ALL LANGUAGES CAN HAVE THE INSPRIRED, PRESERVED, INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD!(SOME I WOULD SAY DO).
Just because someone believes God can Preserve His Word in a specific language doen't mean he is part of some CULT (It is very hateful to say something like that). I hear this all the time that KJV only people are hateful and legalistic, yes even on this board. The KJV only (not Ruckman) people that I know are some of the most Gracious Men of God and because of their Graciousness they get ripped up and down by those who disagree with them.
KJV 1769 Ezekiel 24:7
For her blood is in the midst of her; she set it upon the top of a rock;
she poured it not upon the ground, to cover it with dust;
KJV 1611 Ezekiel 24:7
For her blood is in the midst of her; she set it upon the top of a rock;
she poured it upon the ground, to cover it with dust;
KJV 1769 Ruth 3:15
Also he said, Bring the vail that thou hast upon thee, and hold it. And when she held it, he measured six measures of barley, and laid it on her: and she went into the city.
KJV 1611 Ruth 3:15
Also he said, Bring the vail that thou hast upon thee, and hold it. And when she held it, he measured six measures of barley, and laid it on her: and he went into the city.
So which is the case here with the KJV translators?
HankD
Originally posted by ArcticBound:
IF TWO THINGS ARE NOT THE SAME THAN THEY ARE DIFFERENT! You can't take two Bibles that say two different things and say they both are the Preserved WORDS OF GOD![/b]
Why not? One Bible takes four Gospels that each say entirely different things from each other and calls them all Scripture. Which one is right?
I can see that I am out numbered by a bunch of KJV haters who have their Myths about what they believe and do not want to hear anything else on the subject. You have been brainwashed to Hate the KING JAMES BIBLE!
No, we haven't been "brainwashed" whatsoever, nor do we hate the KJV. We're simply not limited to just the KJV, and neither is GOD. The KJV DOES have some booboos, which we point out to those who say it's perfect-which reminds me, WHICH EDITION OF THE KJV IS PERFECT? No two are alike, so ONLY ONE could be perfect.
If you believe what you say about every version is okay then you would have atleast been honest and said the King James is A Good Tranlsation, but you simply HATE the King James Bible. It's been good enough for 400 years and it is still proving itself today!
The Model-T was the best all-around car in the world from 1908-1927, and is still a valid car, but it's been supplanted by newer, improved models. The KJV is a Model-T Bible, still perfectly valid(as are the Geneva Bible, Bishop's Bible, and others made before 1611)but it's been replaced by newer, improved versions that are written in the language of today.
More Bible perversions will continue to come and go, but the KJV will still be around because it is the INFALLIBLE, INSPIRED, PRESERVED WORD OF GOD IN ENGLISH!
Please give us an example of a Bible perversion.
And the KJV is but one of a number of versions of God's INFALLIBLE, INSPIRED, PRESERVED WORD IN ENGLISH.
It doen't even have a COPYRIGHT, so you can copy it as much as you want without calling up Nelson or Zondervan to get permission. Yes, these Bible Translations are all about money. Find the one that suits you and that's alright!
No one prints the KJV for free. Someone, somewhere has paid for every copy in existence. And if you examine the copyrights on newer versions, you'll see they may be freely reproduced or quoted in their intended use. What is prohibited is reproducing and SELLING the reproductions. The copyrights issue is just another Onlyist sideshow.
IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO STILL BELIEVES THE OLD BOOK when it says,...
Everyone here believes the old book. We also believe the valid older books and the valid newer books.
The Manuscript in the Trash can (Sinaiticus). You are telling me that the world did not have the Pure WORDS of GOD for 1000 years because it was sitting in a Trash can...what a miracle for GOD to allow it to be discovered!!!
GOD has always made available His PURE PRESERVED WORD down through the ages. Man lives by EVERY WORD of GOD!
And so did the British of old. They had Tyndale's Bible. Later, they had the Bishop's bible, which differs from Tyndale's. Soon after, they had the Geneva Bible, which is different from the two I named above, and was the first Bible version brought to what's now the USA. Then, they had the AV 1611, which is different from those which preceded it.
The two major manuscripts which underly the modern day versions (Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus) disagree with each other in many different places, but I guess that makes two groups of Manuscripts a Majority against one group (the over 5,000 manuscripts that overwhelmingly agreed with each other)! But yes the 5,000 manuscripts are just considered one group because they all agree with each other! HELLO!
Those 2 mss are considered along with the others in the eclectic mix used for modern translations. Were all the mss now available in front of the AV translators, they certainly wouldn't have ignored any of them.
By the way the Codex Vaticanus was found in the POPE's LIBRARY in 1481. Yes, the POPE. I'm afraid to ask what people think of the pope in this forum. The Vaticanus is responsible for over 36,000 changes that appear in our modern versions. It omits the Pastoral Epistles, the Book of Revelation, and it stops at Hebrews 9:14, of course, Hebrews 10 condemns the Catholic office of priesthood.
Ever wonder WHY the RCC kept it hidden for so long? Or why they simply didn't burn it?
It's simply an incomplete ms, as are just about all the 5K now known.
[/b]ON AND ON I COULD GO.....But it seems you all somehow will twist what I say; EVEN THE BIBLE VERSES; I don't know how you do that [/b]
Yes, on & on you could go, but it'd still be just another Onlyist circus. While I respect you as a brother in Christ, I see you've been taken in by the most basic and crude of the Onlyist arguments. These arguments have all been shot down over 40 years ago. Just face it-Onlyism has been proven to be built upon guesswork and opinion, operating from a great double standard. The ideas you pose, especially those about Psalm 12:6-7 have come from a book published in 1930 by a SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST leader-a book PROVEN to be full of errors. If YOU, a Baptist, wish to believe something from a leader of a phony "religion", then go right ahead.Just don't expect to have much company from your fellow baptists.
As for the Bible verses, what you call "twisting" is our taking the given verses IN CONTEXT, examining how other Scriptures use the same Greek or Hebrew words. This is how we find what a given verse that's not crystal-clear REALLY says. If you wish to just guess, go right ahead. God gives us the tools to study His word, but it's up to each person to USE them.
IF TWO THINGS ARE NOT THE SAME THAN THEY ARE DIFFERENT! You can't take two Bibles that say two different things and say they both are the Preserved WORDS OF GOD![/b]
Why not? One Bible takes four Gospels that each say entirely different things from each other and calls them all Scripture. Which one is right?
I can see that I am out numbered by a bunch of KJV haters who have their Myths about what they believe and do not want to hear anything else on the subject. You have been brainwashed to Hate the KING JAMES BIBLE!
No, we haven't been "brainwashed" whatsoever, nor do we hate the KJV. We're simply not limited to just the KJV, and neither is GOD. The KJV DOES have some booboos, which we point out to those who say it's perfect-which reminds me, WHICH EDITION OF THE KJV IS PERFECT? No two are alike, so ONLY ONE could be perfect.
If you believe what you say about every version is okay then you would have atleast been honest and said the King James is A Good Tranlsation, but you simply HATE the King James Bible. It's been good enough for 400 years and it is still proving itself today!
The Model-T was the best all-around car in the world from 1908-1927, and is still a valid car, but it's been supplanted by newer, improved models. The KJV is a Model-T Bible, still perfectly valid(as are the Geneva Bible, Bishop's Bible, and others made before 1611)but it's been replaced by newer, improved versions that are written in the language of today.
More Bible perversions will continue to come and go, but the KJV will still be around because it is the INFALLIBLE, INSPIRED, PRESERVED WORD OF GOD IN ENGLISH!
Please give us an example of a Bible perversion.
And the KJV is but one of a number of versions of God's INFALLIBLE, INSPIRED, PRESERVED WORD IN ENGLISH.
It doen't even have a COPYRIGHT, so you can copy it as much as you want without calling up Nelson or Zondervan to get permission. Yes, these Bible Translations are all about money. Find the one that suits you and that's alright!
No one prints the KJV for free. Someone, somewhere has paid for every copy in existence. And if you examine the copyrights on newer versions, you'll see they may be freely reproduced or quoted in their intended use. What is prohibited is reproducing and SELLING the reproductions. The copyrights issue is just another Onlyist sideshow.
IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO STILL BELIEVES THE OLD BOOK when it says,...
Everyone here believes the old book. We also believe the valid older books and the valid newer books.
The Manuscript in the Trash can (Sinaiticus). You are telling me that the world did not have the Pure WORDS of GOD for 1000 years because it was sitting in a Trash can...what a miracle for GOD to allow it to be discovered!!!
GOD has always made available His PURE PRESERVED WORD down through the ages. Man lives by EVERY WORD of GOD!
And so did the British of old. They had Tyndale's Bible. Later, they had the Bishop's bible, which differs from Tyndale's. Soon after, they had the Geneva Bible, which is different from the two I named above, and was the first Bible version brought to what's now the USA. Then, they had the AV 1611, which is different from those which preceded it.
The two major manuscripts which underly the modern day versions (Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus) disagree with each other in many different places, but I guess that makes two groups of Manuscripts a Majority against one group (the over 5,000 manuscripts that overwhelmingly agreed with each other)! But yes the 5,000 manuscripts are just considered one group because they all agree with each other! HELLO!
Those 2 mss are considered along with the others in the eclectic mix used for modern translations. Were all the mss now available in front of the AV translators, they certainly wouldn't have ignored any of them.
By the way the Codex Vaticanus was found in the POPE's LIBRARY in 1481. Yes, the POPE. I'm afraid to ask what people think of the pope in this forum. The Vaticanus is responsible for over 36,000 changes that appear in our modern versions. It omits the Pastoral Epistles, the Book of Revelation, and it stops at Hebrews 9:14, of course, Hebrews 10 condemns the Catholic office of priesthood.
Ever wonder WHY the RCC kept it hidden for so long? Or why they simply didn't burn it?
It's simply an incomplete ms, as are just about all the 5K now known.
[/b]ON AND ON I COULD GO.....But it seems you all somehow will twist what I say; EVEN THE BIBLE VERSES; I don't know how you do that
[/b]Yes, on & on you could go, but it'd still be just another Onlyist circus. While I respect you as a brother in Christ, I see you've been taken in by the most basic and crude of the Onlyist arguments. These arguments have all been shot down over 40 years ago. Just face it-Onlyism has been proven to be built upon guesswork and opinion, operating from a great double standard. The ideas you pose, especially those about Psalm 12:6-7 have come from a book published in 1930 by a SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST leader-a book PROVEN to be full of errors. If YOU, a Baptist, wish to believe something from a leader of a phony "religion", then go right ahead.Just don't expect to have much company from your fellow baptists.
As for the Bible verses, what you call "twisting" is our taking the given verses IN CONTEXT, examining how other Scriptures use the same Greek or Hebrew words. This is how we find what a given verse that's not crystal-clear REALLY says. If you wish to just guess, go right ahead. God gives us the tools to study His word, but it's up to each person to USE them.
Wasn't the first one or two of Erasmus' Greek texts interlinear with Latin?Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
I forgot to add one thing. Erasmus dedicated his to the pope! Guess he didn't want Leo X to get hot over beating the cardinal to the press (and offending some church officials along the way!). By the way, I'm not a KVJ hater; I'm pro KJV!! Just not KJVO!
We don't have the preserved words of God in a single document. God never inspired the Bible in English. No two handwritten Greek mss agree with each other in every detail, not even in the majority text.
I gave you an illustration of how someone's word could be preserved and communicated without using their words. If it is confusing to you then let's reason together. If you believe I have presented an unreasonable proposition then please show me.
Rather than dealing with any of my response, you have gone completely off the deep end, spamming the thread with KJVO non-sense that has been factually, biblically refuted again and again.
If you have biblical, historical, or logical proof that KJVOnlyism is true then please do something no one else has done in my 3 or 4 years of posting to this board... show it.
That would indeed be a strange position for me- a 30+ year user of the KJV, saved from preaching out of it, memorizer of significant portions of it, etc.
I have absolutely nothing against the KJV except... KJVOnlies who would make this grand translation into something more than it is.
Please feel free to show me evidence that dispells these "Myths" I believe. I will be waiting... but I have been waiting for several years now since I dropped KJVOnlyism myself. No KJVO has even come close to answering even the most basic objections to that belief.
Please consider the beam...
I do want to hear anything biblical, factual, and reasonable that you or any other KJVO can come up with. As I have stated before, it would be far more convenient for me if I were KJVO. I have family that is... I would have an easier time finding a local church that isn't completely compromised. The only thing is... truth is more important than convenience.
Nope. I don't hate the KJV. I will admit to hating KJVOnlyism as it is a lie straight out of the mouth of the great deceiver, the father of lies. It is doing terrible damage to fundamentalism and the body of Christ as a whole.
As far as being brainwashed goes, I believe what I believe because my beliefs are consistent with what the Bible teaches, what the factual evidence supports, and what logic dictates. I am open minded to any argument that can refute my beliefs on any or all of these bases.
I do not believe that every version is okay. In fact, I am very conservative and differ with many here in that I think the NIV is wrong in its translation philosophy.
I'll go one better than the KJV being a good translation... it is a superior translation. It simply is not verbally inerrant/perfectly worded.
It uses language that common readers today do not adequately understand. This fact lays the foundation for Satan to deceive people into a great number of false beliefs.
More Bible perversions will continue to come and go,I recently left a church I loved and had worked to build up and that was pastored by a good friend because a visiting preacher used this same kind of verbage from the pulpit. The pastor was unwilling to refute or rebuke this man who I consider a blasphemer against the Word of God. Standing for truth sometimes has a cost.Yes they do. They must accurately communicate His Word! But, God never inspired any English words so these scriptures do great harm to your belief.
Every Greek ms differs from all others. Only a few hundred have any part of I John. Most don't have any part of Revelation in them. Your wishful thinking about the preservation of a stream of perfectly worded Bibles is simply not borne out by the facts.
But they don't all agree with each other. For instance, there is no majority text for the ending of Mark. There are several versions, no of which comprise 50% of the known mss.
FTR, there is more variation within the Byzantine majority than there is between the TR and any modern critical text. In other words, the texts used to translate all current English Bible versions are more true to each other than the full family of mss of the BT/MT.
I think the Pope is the leader of the world's largest cult.You know... I don't find any of these problems in my NKJV or NASB. Perhaps you have been brainwashed into believe "36,000 changes" without checking it out.
Oh don't be so modest... you most certainly do know how to twist Bible verses. You have done a grand job of it here by implying that all of the verses you listed apply to the KJV and only the KJV (in English).ON AND ON I COULD GO.....But it seems you all somehow will twist what I say; EVEN THE BIBLE VERSES; I don't know how you do that
Charles Meadows
New Member
I should mentioned also that Erasmus' initial translation was interlinear with Latin. That's part of what got him in hot water - the fact that he dared produce another (not Jerome) Latin text!