What is your church doing...

[Pennsylvania Jim]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
1. Because one is legal and one is not.

2. Because if someone breaks into a house, it is justifiable self-defense. If someone aborts a child, it is not justifiable self-defense.

3. If someone breaks into a house and threatens a life, the victim will likely not be calling the pastor for advice. However, if they do, I will tell them to defend themselves and their family by whatever means necessary. If possible I will go to their house to help them. They have legal recourse. If someone calls me for advice on abortion, I will say in no uncertain terms that it would be murder and disobedience to God. I will go to their house to pray and counsel with them. However, neither I nor they have legal recourse in the event of an abortion.

I agree that both scenarios are wrong before God. However, the laws of the land are different and we must work within those laws.

Let's turn the question around. What do you think churches should be doing about abortion?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In order of your posted response:

1. So, just becacuse the gov't calls it legal then we have no obligation before God to defend the defenseless? And, therefore, the operators of Hitler's gas chambers were justified by their claim that they were "only following ordrers?

2. I disagree although I admit that the implications are then difficult.

3. The little ones being killed can't call you. But you know that they are there. Their blood cries out. Will it be found on our hands?

Some suggestions as to what churches should be doing:

1) several folks have posted on this thread what they are doing. I think that one of the most common is supporting a crisis pregnancy center or similar group with money, volunteer assistance, and prayer. Another describes his activity in posting a picture that shows people what we are, through our government, condoning. Great work, IMHO.

2) Individuals can try to pressure their congressmen, and other politicians at all levels, to put a stop to this. But, think how much more effective it would be for a congressman to get pressure from a pastor and his entire congregation. You could make it public, through copying letters sent to him to other churches, newspapers, etc.

3) Individual believres should be encouraged to be active in all the above activities and more.

4) I could go on but I'm sure that you can think of just as many things as I can.

We ain't saved to sit.

[ September 30, 2001: Message edited by: Pennsylvania Jim ]

 

[ellis]

Such typical responses.........

What are we doing? We're preaching! Forget about what Jesus said about giving a cup of water in his name, let's get our priorities straight.

And if we're preaching, then we need to have a comfortable building in which to do that. So let's build a monument to the preacher with our tithes and offerings. It would be too bad to let them go to waste where they would really do some good. Let's build another building so our dwindling congregations can die in comfort while young unwed mothers continue to avoid our churches like the plague and continue to have abortions because our message is just not getting to them.

This board drips with arrogance and self-righteousness, and is loaded with angry dissent over things that really count, like whether or not the KJV is the preserved Word of God or those poor deceived other people who criticize the Independent Fundamental Baptists because they just can't see how absolutely perfect they really are. Yet when it comes down to a simple question, What are you doing about abortion, the answer rings loud and true from this board. WE'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING EXCEPT JUSTIFYING OUR LACK OF ACTION BY PROOFTEXTING SCRIPTURE.

Folks, you can blast the Catholic church all you want to. The fact of the matter is that in the tragedy of an abortion holocaust in this country, they are doing something about it, and they are doing a thousand times more than any of us Baptists.

Perhaps there is something we can learn from them after all.

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

WOW!

Well said, Ellis!

 

[myreflection26]

Ellis,

You got that right!!!! I mean lets focus on the real important issues like what music to play or what to wear or what version to read while we are really ignoring our real job here and that is to reach out to the world..NO NOT AVOID THEM LIKE THE PLAGUE, they are NOT the enemy the enemy is satan and his bondage over the unsaved.

As I've said before, its not "us" and "them" but scripture says "where there is no vision the people perish", where is our vision for the unsaved and the ladies going in to have abortions or those who are hurting and in need of more in thier lives? Tell me something, when you discover a new product that enhances your life and you love that product and use it daily, do you keep it from others for yourself? Goodness no, you spill the beans to everyone including those you don't even know if the need is brought up. Why then, do we avoid the world so much like we're better than they are? We're not better than they are, we just found a "product" that we love who enhances our life and provided us with the great gift known to man and yet we hesitate to share this?

I am as guilty as the next joe on here, but I challange everyone of you to "Get up out of your pew" and reach out to that unwed pregnate and scared soon to be mother and help her, don't just preach to her, she already knows she screwed up, believe me the enemy won't let her live that one down he'll push as much guilt on her as possible. We need to let her know that there is forgivness and she can live a whole meaningful life in Jesus. Keep in mind, the more guilt the enemy can place on her, the more she'll start to relate that guilt to her child and begin to feel her child is a mistake, that is something we don't want. These are things I've learned from coaches at our local christian pregnancy center in helping to counsel ladies, they must see little by little that although a sin was done that their child is not wrong, or a mistake but God loves thier child and has a purpose and plan for that child and the mother.

UGGG sorry, here I go again looong winded on this.

Sue

[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: myreflection26 ]

 

[Jefferson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
Keep in mind that even young children who don't completely understand this stuff is seeing this too and that is not so wise.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm trying to save lives out there, not just win a political debate. Consider this analogy: If you saw a toddler wander into a busy street I'm sure you would try to run and grab him before he got hit by a car. BUT . . . what if a 5 year old child got in your way? Then what? Would you be willing to knock that 5 year old over if that's what it took to get to the toddler in the street before he got killed? I would. I hope you would too. Even though the 5 year old we knocked over may have night-mares and may even need therapy over our actions, we would STILL knock him over because we were trying to save a life. What is the difference between that and the lives I am trying to save with my graphic, offensive sign that little children have to see?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I can completely understand the rage of outsiders when they see this type of thing,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good. I HOPE they are offended. That is one of my GOALS. People who are complacent about legalized murder don't deserve to live in undisturbed serenity. The civil rights leaders chant, "No justice, no peace!" I agree. No justice for the unborn, no peace. Bring on the screaming matches. Bring on the law suits. I love every minute of it. The socially acceptable pontificators in the safety of their ivory towers have failed to protect the slaughter of the unborn. Their score-board reads:

# of babies saved = ZERO

# of social climbing cocktail parties invited to = MANY

And you know what the worst thing about that score-board is? That score-board looks GOOD to the social climbers who worship being "liked" more than they worship Jesus Christ.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>plus it won't be doing much good for the testimony of the church.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Being wishy-washy on the issue of legalized murder is a GOOD testimony for the church?

 

[Aaron]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
Ellis,

You got that right!!!! I mean lets focus on the real important issues like what music to play or what to wear or what version to read while we are really ignoring our real job here and that is to reach out to the world..NO NOT AVOID THEM LIKE THE PLAGUE, they are NOT the enemy the enemy is satan and his bondage over the unsaved.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pure religion and undefiled before God the Father is not ONLY visiting the widows and orphans in their affliction, it is also to keep one's self unspotted from the world, James 1:27.

Though in comparison the issues you mock seem trivial, they are just as much a part of our job as anything else, and discerning ministers recognize that.

 

[myreflection26]

I can't believe you even tried to use that comparison. So, would you even let that same 5 year old child sit down and watch a bloody horror flick if it had the gospel message inverted somehow in it?

Honestly, if the parent's of the church you go to didn't care about thier kids seeing such a graphic photo then thats up to them, but to force other people's children who prefere them not to see such graphic things you are in wrong. I would definately take you to court over this, thats in very poor taste.

Chances are you would save a lot more lives by helping the pregnate lady in her time of need than posting this stuff on a busy highway only causing anger in others.

You never did actually answer my question, what is your church doing in actually actively helping ladies who are pregnate or helping the pregnancy center? You can scream all you want, but until you show love and lend your resources out to see someone get help your adding to the problem instead of being a solution.

Wishy washy? Wishy washy is preaching one thing and doing another. I hardly think loving and supporting someone in order to keep them from having an abortion is wishy washy. I don't think providing clothing, food and education to unwed soon to be mothers is being wishy washy, I think its actually helping the problem.

Hmmm, lets look at it from a different view. You are a pregnate unwed teenager scared out of your witts and your driving by a church with a picture in the front lawn that has a bloody unborn child on it ripped to shreds. Do you say, oh well thats what must happen to children if you abort them, or do you say what the???? and go on to find someone who actually gives you support and explains how you can overcome your personal situation and even offers to help out with practical needs.

I am sure I know what I would do.

sue

 

[Jefferson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
You never did actually answer my question, what is your church doing in actually actively helping ladies who are pregnate or helping the pregnancy center?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've only been attending there for 9 months. I'm not a member and won't be a member because I don't believe in membership because I don't believe in mob rule. Therefore I don't attend the business meetings so I don't know everything they donate to. I'm just glad they are doing as much as they are in this fight. Most churches aren't doing anything.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You can scream all you want, but until you show love and lend your resources out to see someone get help your adding to the problem instead of being a solution.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, please. I'm tired of this "christian" definition of "love" that holds child murderer's hands on their way to hell. Christians call that "loving." Give me a break. No one will ever ask God to forgive them of their sins unless they first become convinced that they are sinners. That's pretty unlikely to happen with all the Christians running around telling them "I'm O.K. and you're O.K."

And as far as being a part of the problem, not the solution, I have had several people come up to me and tell me they were not sure if the unborn were actually "people" until they saw my sign. Those people could have easily had or paid for an abortion in the near future. Not any more. Would you rather those people have not become convinced of the sanctity of the life of the unborn as long as it meant the church remained "popular"?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Wishy washy? Wishy washy is preaching one thing and doing another. I hardly think loving and supporting someone in order to keep them from having an abortion is wishy washy. I don't think providing clothing, food and education to unwed soon to be mothers is being wishy washy, I think its actually helping the problem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think what you're doing is wishy washy either. I think it is very important and I in no way think you should stop. What I do think is wishy washy is acting like the tortuous murder of babies is just another political issue to be politely debated. I don't demand that you to protest the way I do. Each of us is made differently by God. Also, each of us only has so many hours in a day and we can't fight every battle in every way. Some people are very skilled orators. Others are terriffic "people persons" with amazing abilities of compassion, empathy and hospitality. God has blessed others with finances and the heart to fund the shelters you mention even though they personally may never work in those shelters. Still others are warriors willing to risk getting arrested by blocking the entrances to abortion clinics or risk getting their lights punched out by half the city in which they live by displaying graphic billboards. I'm not encouraging any of these people to stop what they are doing. I just can't believe that any of them oppose me. I'm on their side (unless they worship the "god" of popularity which I'm beginning to suspect is the real issue here).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hmmm, lets look at it from a different view. You are a pregnate unwed teenager scared out of your witts and your driving by a church with a picture in the front lawn that has a bloody unborn child on it ripped to shreds. Do you say, oh well thats what must happen to children if you abort them<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The goal is to get them to say, "I had no idea they looked that human! I also had no idea their death was that tortuous! There is no way I can do that to my baby. I'm either going to keep it or give it up for adoption." A life gets saved at the expense of the "popularity" of the church. Sounds like a good trade to me. Does it sound like a good trade to you?

You also never answered my question. If you saw a toddler in the middle of a busy street would you knock over a 5 year old that got in your way in order to try to get to the toddler in time? Yes or no?

And a second question: If you met an abortionist "doctor" what would you say to him and how would you say it?

[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]

[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]

 

[myreflection26]

What comparison is that? That is kind of my answer, I mean obviously I would knock over the 5 year old child to get to the child on the road and I'm pretty sure that any parent of that 5 year old knocked over would completely understand that. It really has nothing to do with the issue at hand so that is why you didn't get a clear and concise answer to it.

My biggest problem with your display of this photograph is the fact that you are litereally going against other parent's wishes and publically displaying a scary photo. In the same hand how would you feel if at the local video store they publically promoted and displayed the lastest porn flick for your young kids to even see? Not only would you be angry that they have the gull to display such garbage but you would be upset that they had no regard to your children.

As for your question of my comment to an abortionist if I came in contact with one? Unless the conversation came up I most likely wouldn't say a thing to him or her unless God presented an oppertunity for me to do so then of course I would most definately give them my take on this issue and how God sees it.

I do not agree with those who cling to clinics and throw themselves in front of doors to abortion clinics or bomb those places or even murder the abortionists. How is taking thier lives any different than what they are doing? Its a defeat of the purpose.

This is not just a matter of convincing a person they are in sin, that is NOT our job that is the Holy Sprit's job to do. Our job is to love them, love is not nose to nose screaming in thier faces on how wrong they are as Jesus did not come to condemn but to give life and life more abundantly we need to follow in those steps and offer that same life in the same love Jesus offered it in.

Sue


Btw, Aaron, no those issues in comparison are far from as important.

 

[ellis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:


Pure religion and undefiled before God the Father is not ONLY visiting the widows and orphans in their affliction, it is also to keep one's self unspotted from the world, James 1:27.

Though in comparison the issues you mock seem trivial, they are just as much a part of our job as anything else, and discerning ministers recognize that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The issues I "mocked" are trivial. Keeping oneself "unspotted" from the world, as the King James puts it (to keep oneself from being polluted by the world in the NIV) has nothing to do with arguments over Bible translations or who holds the right opinion on a context of scripture. I've seen more changes of context in the prooftexting that is done on this board than anyone could even keep up with.

Sit in your churches and keep arguing about who has the exactly right doctrine, and see how many widows and orphans you'll have time to look after. Fear of being polluted by the world can keep you from ever going out into it.

It's also pretty hard to show the love of Jesus to the world when we don't even show it to each other. "Correct doctrine" is a laughable mockery if you are hiding behind it as an excuse to say that you are doing something in the Lord's name, when you're really not doing anything else.

If you judge your brother over his clothes, or his hair, or his Bible translation, then whatever translation you use is really irrelevant because you obviously don't believe the Bible anyway. Likewise, the torrents of words from self-righteous Christians about the tragedy of abortion are useless and irrelevant if there is no action.

Oh, how I hate to prooftext, but this one I just can't resist!!! In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

 

[Jefferson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
. . . obviously I would knock over the 5 year old child to get to the child on the road . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what's the difference between that and what I'm doing? In both cases we are risking giving a 5 year old night mares in order to save a life. Why is it O.K. for you to risk giving a 5 year old night mares in order to save a life, but it's not O.K. for me?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>My biggest problem with your display of this photograph is the fact that you are litereally going against other parent's wishes and publically displaying a scary photo.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So if it was against the parent's wishes for you to knock their 5 year old over to try to save the life of a toddler in a street, you would now change your mind and NOT knock him over?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In the same hand how would you feel if at the local video store they publically promoted and displayed the lastest porn flick for your young kids to even see?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On what planet do pornographers try to save the lives of children?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As for your question of my comment to an abortionist if I came in contact with one? Unless the conversation came up I most likely wouldn't say a thing to him or her unless God presented an oppertunity for me to do so then of course I would most definately give them my take on this issue and how God sees it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Humor me. Give me your word for word "take" to him about how you don't think it's very "nice" to rip a baby's arm out of its socket while it's sucking it's thumb. I REALLY want to hear how you plan on gently cooing to him the reality of that fact and still have him wind up "liking" you when the discussion is over. (That IS the ultimate goal of the Christian life, right? To make sure we're "liked" by everyone?)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I do not agree with those who cling to clinics and throw themselves in front of doors to abortion clinics . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's see . . . would those actions result in the protestors being "liked" or "not liked"? I think we're beginning to see a pattern here.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> . . . or bomb those places or even murder the abortionists.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Bible is against vigilanteism, therefore, so am I.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How is taking thier lives any different than what they are doing? Its a defeat of the purpose.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please quote me where I defended those actions.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This is not just a matter of convincing a person they are in sin, that is NOT our job that is the Holy Sprit's job to do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Herod beheaded John the Baptist for "rebuking" the king for "all the evils which Herod had done" (Luke 3:19) and for condemning the tetrarch for incestuous adultery (Matthew 14:3-4; Mark 6:17-18) with "Herodias, his brother Philip's wife" (Luke 3:19).

The especially harsh term "hypocrite" is used in the Gospels 23 times. Christ often insulted the scribes, Pharisees and lawyers. He even called the Pharisees blind guides (Matthew 23:16, 24) and sons of hell (Matthew 23:15). Jesus spoke unkind words unacceptable by today's "nicer than God" Christians. He told the Pharisees "You are of your father the devil" (John 8:44), and made a whip and cleared "thieves" from the temple (Matthew 21:12-13; Mark 11: 15-17; Luke 19:45-46; John 2:14:15). Christ is our example that we are supposed to follow, remember?

The apostle Paul called unbelievers fools (Romans 1:22) and the Galatians fools (Galatians 3:1,3). Jesus also called men fools (Matthew 23:17, 19; 25:2-8; Luke 11:40; 12:20) when appropriate but never "without a cause" (Matthew 5:22) according to His teaching. As King David wrote, "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" (Psalm 53:1). Thus, atheists are fools and it would be cruel and unloving to withhold this knowledge from them.

Jesus was a man, not a girl. Christianity today has been emasculated. Today, Christian ministers are expected to behave like women. That foolishness is a death sentence for many unbelievers who are looking for strength, confidence, conviction and tough love.

Today we are WAY nicer than God. It is tragic. This spiritual plateau that the Church has reached conveniently reduces the chances for confrontation. Nice people rarely rebuke, judge, confront, accuse or condemn. Nice people have less stress. It seems the only ones that Christians are quick to judge and condemn are fellow believers who judge and condemn the wicked.

Why is this? My guess is because Christians worship being "liked" more than they worship Jesus Christ. If judgementalism becomes the expected life-style for Christians, then that would mean THEY would have to judge! And that might make them . . . (oh no! . . . dare I say it?) . . . UNPOPULAR!!! Horror of horrors! Someone might not like me!

By the way, you didn't answer my other question which was . . .

"And as far as being a part of the problem, not the solution, I have had several people come up to me and tell me they were not sure if the unborn were actually "people" until they saw my sign. Those people could have easily had or paid for an abortion in the near future. Not any more. Would you rather those people have not become convinced of the sanctity of the life of the unborn as long as it meant the church remained "popular"?"

[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]

 

[myreflection26]

It sounds to me like you actually have more of an issue with popularity than the church really does. Reaching out in love doesn't mean your trying to win the popular vote, it means your trying win the souls.

The problem with your comparison of the 5 year old knocked over, is the fact that its not a comparison. It has nothing to do with this situation as much as you would like to think so. I don't know any 5 year old who is going to be scared for life and need theropy from simply being knocked over, I have a 4 year old and he's been knocked over several times in his little life and he simply gets back up and brushes himself off and goes on about his day. When he sees a scary picture or monsters or something gross on tv it scares him tremendously.

The fact that a few people have been enlightened by your picture is good, but by the same fact that more have been offended and angered is not. Doesn't the bible say that if we are a stumbling block to another, that we shouldn't do the action? I think you are confusing real tough christian love with downright ignorance to other people.

Sure the pornography people have no interest in saving lives, but honestly you aren't saving many either, your being a part of the problem no matter if there are some who say they didn't know, there are still those offended by seeing this and children who are seeing this who don't understand....its not justifiable no matter how much you try to justify it.

Ya know what, we're simply not going to agree on this issue. I'm not going to change what you do and you certainly are not going to change what I think of what you and your church is doing. Lets just put this to rest now ok?

Thanks,

Sue

 

[Jefferson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
It sounds to me like you actually have more of an issue with popularity than the church really does.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My issue is this: The Bible says all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. How are you being persecuted? If your not being persecuted then according to the Bible, your not living godly. They murdered Jesus Christ. They murdered most of the apostles. Therefore, if no one even says 1 evil word against you, then that should tell you that there is something wrong with your spiritual life. What other conclusion can you draw?

Jesus promised his followers, "if they hated Me, they will hate you" (John 15:18-19; 17:14; Mat. 10:22; Luke 21:17). Today's feminized Christians think if the world hates them, they have failed. The reverse should be true.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Reaching out in love doesn't mean your trying to win the popular vote, it means your trying win the souls.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is holding a sinners hand and telling him "I'm O.K. and you're O.K." while he is on his way to Hell a loving action?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I don't know any 5 year old who is going to be scared for life and need theropy from simply being knocked over, I have a 4 year old and he's been knocked over several times in his little life . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By an adult running full speed at him?

This is why my analogy does apply. Both situations are likely to give the child nightmares, therefore the analogy fits perfectly.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The fact that a few people have been enlightened by your picture is good, but by the same fact that more have been offended and angered is not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jesus was offensive. Most people were offended by Him. The proof for John the Baptist that Jesus was the Christ was that the blind see, the lame walk and the majority are "offended by Him (Matthew 11:2-19). As Jesus said, "Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me" (Matthew 11:6; Luke 7:23). In Galilee, Jesus did not plead with his neighbors to understand Him when "they were offended at Him" (Matthew 13:57; Mark 6:3). If unbelievers are offended, so be it (cf. Luke 14:3-4; John 5:8-16). "Shake off the dust from your feet" (Matthew 10:14). But unfortunately, that is no longer considered a proper "Christian" attitude.

Christ's apostles asked Him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard [Your] saying" (Matthew 15:12). What is the accepted Christian response today after an offense is taken? Quick, apologize! Ask for forgiveness! Tell them you are sorry! But how did Jesus respond? He said to ignore the complaints of the unbelievers: "Let them alone. They are blind," (Matthew 15:14). Today, many Christians condemn Christ's attitude as "unloving" because they have a different (ie. unbiblical) definition of "love" than Christ had.

Jesus promised his followers, "you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended" (Matthew 24:9-10).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Doesn't the bible say that if we are a stumbling block to another, that we shouldn't do the action?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The verse you mention has to do with not putting a stumbling block in another believer's way. I would hope no believer is on their way to having an abortion when they see my sign. And if they were, it wouldn't be a stumbling block but a biblical rebuke.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I think you are confusing real tough christian love with downright ignorance to other people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you are confusing biblical love with the stress-free lifestyle of being liked by everyone.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sure the pornography people have no interest in saving lives, but honestly you aren't saving many either,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I only wind up saving one, don't you think that would be worth it? I'll bet that one I saved would answer with a very enthusiastic "YES!" Don't you agree?

One question: Have you ever express even 1% of the anger toward anyone who supports the legalized slaughter of babies as you have expressed toward me, a person who is trying to save the babies from being slaughtered? If your answer is "no", why not?

Finally, in reviewing this thread I noticed that I quoted way more verses than you did to support my position. Why do you think this is?

 

[myreflection26]

No, your analogy is not even close to the situation and no I don't believe any child would be having nightmares about being knocked over by an adult running full speed. It's happened many of times and kids recover from things like that.

Who said I am hold sinner's hands and telling them they are ok while on their way to hell? I guess this is something you cooked up in your mind because I never said that is what I do. What I do is offer support to the ladies who are pregnate and scared of what the future will be like. Are you aware that many teens get abortions due to the fact they see having a baby as their life being over and no chance for a career? Alot of times the father of the baby skips out and the young unwed mom is left to either her parent's support or no support at all and she figures, well, I'm in this alone so I have no other way out. There is more to the girl than just being a sinner, she knows what she did was wrong and it put her in a bad place in her life so there is no need to place guilt and condemnation on her, but there is need to let her know God does love her and cares about her and what choices she makes. How do you know she views her unborn child as a blob or just tissue? Perhaps she does see her child as a human being, but is simply alone, scared and needing support and a plan.

The basic things we discuss with ladies is this. Now that you are in this situation what is your plan of action? Are you planning to stay in school or planning to go to College or work? How are you going to support your child and do you know what options are out there for unwed mothers?

They really need to grasp the basic, practical things and God's spirit will take care of a lot. Show them love first, show them support and you can show them God and Godly ways. Get in thier face and scream, yell and carry on about your stand and your view and you'll get a discouraged kid walking away into the clinic. They don't see it as God's view when you are not acting Godly.

In answer to your question, no I've not even spoken to the abortionist about what they do. My goal is not to get angry with anyone (including you) I just happen to disagree with you is all. We don't wrestle with flesh and blood but against principalities and rulers of darkness, this means I don't need to get in anyone's face and yell at them about opposing views but I do need to help and educate and support and provide.

I basically wanted to know, are you doing anything other than displaying a contraversial picture on a busy highway? Are you also reaching out and using simple resources to help pregnancy centers or unwed mothers?

Sue

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

It seems to me that Sue and Jefferson both have valid and effective ministries. Just different. Why not accept that we work together for the same righteous cause and fight the enemy instead of each other?

If you wish to argue, argue with those who condone doing NOTHING about it while playing church.

 

[Jefferson]

Exactly, Pennsylvania Jim. Throughout this thread I have encouraged Sue to continue doing the good work she is doing. I in no way want to disuade her. I am on her side. That's why I'm having a hard time figuring out why she wants to disuade me.

I'm not telling her she is sinning if she does not participate in the abortion issue exactly the way I do. That would be legalism. She is, however, demanding that I participate in it exactly the way she does or else I am sinning.

She could easily be misinterpreted as a legalistic, authoritarian, thought-police wanna-be. Since I know that she's too "nice" to actually be that way, the only other conclusion I can inferr is that she is absolutely petrified that my style of tough-love Christianity that confronts sin (and risks being unpopular) will become accepted in the Christian community, and then will eventually become expected in the Christian community.

This would mean that one day she will be expected to act in a similar offensive, confrontational, rebuking way that Jesus and the apostles acted. It made them very unpopular, therefore it will also make her very unpopular. But if she truely follows their example, this will be the inevitable result and I think it scares the daylights out of her. Therefore, she wants to stomp out Christians with my attitude before we start gaining respectability in the churches.

After all, think about it. There are Christians out there who commit adultery, fornication, who lie, cheat, steal, pastors who run off with the church secretary, charlatans on TV who take the life-savings of little old Christian ladies, Christian bus workers who have brought reproach to the name of Jesus Christ by molesting the children on their bus route and on and on and on. Has Sue ever posted even ONE comment expressing outrage and righteous indignation over any of those scoundrels? I'll bet not. She's too "nice."

But she'll fight someone like me with every ounce of energy she has. People don't act like that unless someone is threatening the heart of who they are as a person. In other words, I am attacking her "god." Sue worships the false god who's name is "Popularity" more than she worships the true God whos name is Jesus Christ.

[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]

[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]

 

[myreflection26]

Dr.

Well I simply have some viewpoints on this issue, I believe strongly that people are not actually ministering or helping when they use thier mouths and not thier hands. It is simply my point of view though.

Jefferson, who's attacking who now? Since your not able to see my heart, as I'm not able to see your heart you couldn't possibly know what "god" I'm serving so I'll take that as a grain of salt.

I've not once said your sinning, I've said that disrespecting other's wishes to not having their children see gross pictures is wrong, but I never said you were sinning. In my opinion, ethically speaking it is very wrong.

I am actually finding your theory of my fear of others who "fight abortion" in this manner humerous. I feel badly for any christian who would fear another christian in any capacity. Jesus delt with certain situations in the appropriate manner and not always in "tough love", but a lot of times in simple caring, supportive and forgiving kind of love. There are times for both and ways to go about both too which I'm sure we both have a lot to learn about.

As I mentioned in an earier post, I know I'm not going to change you, and frankly I have no wishes to do so, so I'm not really sure of where you are getting that I am demanding you conform to my ways, I suppose that means I'm not allowed to disagree and feel that you are wrong on issues. I also have requested in an earier post that we simply move on and agree to disagree. Each to their own in certain matters and this is one of them.

Blessings
Sue

 

[Jefferson]

Sue:

First you said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I've not once said your sinning<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you immediately contradicted yourself by saying:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>ethically speaking it is very wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The very definition of sin is something that is "ethically very wrong." You just don't want to call what I do "sin" because you're nicer than God.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Jesus delt with certain situations in the appropriate manner and not always in "tough love"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But sometimes with "tough-love", . . . right?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There are times for both<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even for you? Or do you only practice "soft-love"?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As I mentioned in an earier post, I know I'm not going to change you, and frankly I have no wishes to do so<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you now saying you don't want me to take down my sign? (If I did that would be me "changing") That's not the impression I've gotten from you throughout this entire thread.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm not really sure of where you are getting that I am demanding you conform to my ways, I suppose that means I'm not allowed to disagree and feel that you are wrong on issues.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If what I'm doing is wrong I want people to disagree with me as long as they do so by showing me scripturally where I am unbiblical. You haven't done that. I've provided tons of Bible verses to support my position. You have basically just told me you think I'm wrong because it's just your opinion. That's legalism.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I also have requested in an earier post that we simply move on and agree to disagree.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. Not until you admit that what I am doing is Biblical. Have I not quoted enough verses for you supporting my positions?

Additionally, you have not answered the following questions. I assume the reason is because you have no answers to them:

"A life gets saved at the expense of the "popularity" of the church. Sounds like a good trade to me. Does it sound like a good trade to you?"

"So if it was against the parent's wishes for you to knock their 5 year old over to try to save the life of a toddler in a street, you would now change your mind and NOT knock him over?"

"My issue is this: The Bible says all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. How are you being persecuted?"

"If I only wind up saving one, don't you think that would be worth it? I'll bet that one I saved would answer with a very enthusiastic "YES!" Don't you agree?"

"Have you ever expressed even 1% of the anger toward anyone who supports the legalized slaughter of babies as you have expressed toward me, a person who is trying to save the babies from being slaughtered?"

"In reviewing this thread I noticed that I quoted way more verses than you did to support my position. Why do you think this is?"

Back to your quote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I don't believe any child would be having nightmares about being knocked over by an adult running full speed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're kidding, right?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In answer to your question, no I've not even spoken to the abortionist about what they do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now Sue, you know that wasn't my question. I did not ask "Have you spoken to an abortionist?" What I did ask was if you were to ever, sometime in the future meet an abortionist . . . "Give me your word for word "take" to him about how you don't think it's very "nice" to rip a baby's arm out of its socket while it's sucking it's thumb. I REALLY want to hear how you plan on gently cooing to him the reality of that fact and still have him wind up "liking" you when the discussion is over." That was my question. Not the easy "straw-man" question that you set up for yourself.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>My goal is not to get angry with anyone<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not? Jesus got angry with people. The apostles got angry with people. Aren't we supposed to follow their examples? Or are we supposed to be nicer than God?

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Sue,

I say this kindly, I just want to point something out. Before you respond, take at least three times as long to THINK about what I am saying as it takes you to read it.

From your posts elsewhere, it is apparent that you have ministries that are considered out of bounds by most (not all) Christians. I am not here to make that judgement, although I do have my opinions on it. I'm sure that if you truly seek God's will through prayer, thought, and Bible reading, He will either confirm your ministry or lead you to change it.

That being the case, I would think that you, of all people, would have an understanding that there are a wide variety of ministries and methods used by God's people to advance His work. Yet, your position with Jefferson is not that you personally would not do it that way, but that HE shouldn't either.

Why be so narrow minded and so self-confident that you can just out-of-hand dismiss and condemn the ministry that God has laid on the heart of your brother, based on little or nothing more than your own opinion?

 

[myreflection26]

I see since I disagree with this particular thing, I'm the one who's narrow minded, yet when ya'll disagree with CCM or other things of ministry which have been pointed out I'm the one who is blind yet you all are the ones who have your act together...mmmmm.

Jefferson, I am dropping this, you can continue on with this if you wish but it will have to be with someone else. I will not admit that what you are doing is biblical because I do not believe it is, that is my personal opinion, I have not said you are sinning, I said I believe it is unethical. I won't ask you to do anything in taking the sign down or changing your mind beause honestly I really don't care what you do. I was simply responding with my own thoughts on the situation and you can do as you wish, doesn't mean I have to believe its right...now who's demanding??

Sue