What is YOUR Definition of being Spiritually Dead?

[preacher4truth]

Not exactly accurate. Reformed (calvinistic) soteriology says this, other views of soteriology do not.

That's absolutely false. This portion of soteriology is not solely only reformed. You are misinformed. Go check some non-reformed theologians.

That's odd you are so sure, as Wesley proves your premise false:

"He here resumes the thread of his discourse. Who were dead - Not only diseased, but dead; absolutely void of all spiritual life; and as incapable of quickening yourselves..."

Shall I provide more non-reformed views that also agree that man is incapable, being spiritually dead, or is one enough to suffice your apparently false premise?

 

[Winman]

What now instead say it this way...

God will enable the person to actually be able to get saved!

You just love that word "enable" don't you? But you do not understand what I and a few others mean by this. I will try an anology.

Can you see? Do you have physical sight? Obviously you can as you post here and read other's posts.

But let's say you are in a pitch black room with no windows. Are you "able" to see now? No, but only because there is no light, but not because you lack the ability to physically see.

Can you follow this so far?

Now, I am on the outside of this room, but I have a switch that can turn on a light inside the darkened room you are in. I flip the switch and the light in your room comes on. You see beautiful paintings on the wall you were not aware were there when the room was dark.

Now, I have "enabled" you to see. There was no magic, and I did not give you a physical ability you lacked.

Paul asked how a person can believe in him of whom they have not heard. There is no magic needed for you to believe, you already have that ability. But you cannot possibly believe what you do not know. This is what the gospel does, it provides the information of Jesus so that you can believe.

It is just like me turning on the light, I didn't give you a physical ability you lacked, I simply provided light that enabled you to see.

If God did not reveal Jesus to you through preaching and the word of God, you could not possibly believe. It is that simple, and that is what the scriptures teach. They do not teach that God has to magically alter your mind for you to believe.

I hope you finally GET IT.

 

[preacher4truth]

If you are going to use the corpse definition of dead, you must also tie in the fact death is the ceasing or ending of life.

....Which isn't so hard. Your above allusion...that's supposed to stifle?

Spiritually they died, in other words, it was the end of spiritually being alive and the end of spiritual life.

So, yes, spiritual life ended and ceased.

I tied it all together no problem.

 

[revmwc]

Death is separation both physically and spiritually, but it means the ending of life. There can be no death without life first by the very definition of death.

People use the phrase "dead as a doornail" as a metaphor, buut fact is a nail is not dead as it never possessed life. Your harmartiology places man in a similar capacity...but we are getting off subject as this thread is not about augustinian original sin.

Let's see daeth:
Physical by mine seperation of the soul and spirit at physical death, by yours death of the person period. By mine soul and spirit are seperated from body and go to their eternal home by yours everything dies.

Temporal death = by mine seperation of the filling of the spirit for the believer, the believer commits 1 sin and is under the control of sin and is temporarily seperated from the control of the Holy Spirit (filling). By yours the believer is dead because of sin in his life. By mine confession restores the filling of the Spirit the believer is back under the control of the Spirit. By yours confession will not help there can be no restoration of the filling for the believer is dead to the control of the spirit.

OPerational = the believers is seperated by being continually controled by sin and is operating in the flesh. By my definition of death Repentence and confession restores the believer even if He has been continually operating out of the will of God. By yours he has no hope he is dead.

Sexual = the lose of the ability to reproduce this was reversed in Abraham by God but normally it is a permanent sepration of that ability.

The Second Death = seperation of the unbeliever for eternity from God because they failed to receive Christ.

Finally Spiritual Death= Seperation from the control of the Spirit, we are born in a state of the ability to understand and do Spiritual things, the natural understandeth not the things of God they are foolishness to him, that is Spiritual death, I believe we are born in that stae and stay in tha state until we come to Christ in Salvation. Some on here say we are seperated when sin occurs, so that would be about 3 weeks old to probably 6 months when the first big temper tantrum is pitched by the infant. They don't have to realize it isi sin they just commit it.

So if we go by yours several of the deaths we die their is no hope and the soul and spirit go to the grave with the body, that would be soul sleeping, the bible definitely doesn't teach that.

 

[percho]

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.

Therefore you are dead in trespass and sin meaning dying thou shall surly die.
When you die you will be dead. Without life.
You will have to be raised from the dead in order to have any kind of life. Could be physical that could be taken again or it could be spiritual which will be eternal.

In other words you will be paid the wages of sin.

Your only hope is the gift of God that comes through Jesus the Christ.

The hope of eternal life.

 

[JesusFan]

In short, on election the Arminians teach that faith is a condition of election, Calvinists disagree, on the Atonement Arminians teach that Christ died for all men and Calvinists teach He died for the elect alone, conversely Calvinists teach that Christ’s death was effectual and Arminians teach it was partially provisional and partially effectual, on depravity Arminians and Calvinists agree that man cannot save himself or do anything good without grace, on Grace Arminians teach that grace can be resisted and Calvinists teach that it is effectual and cannot be resisted and on Perseverance Arminians did not say whether Christians may fall away or not, but Calvinists take the position that they cannot fall away.

Because there is substantial agreement in relation to depravity, total depravity is not a Calvinist nor an Arminian distinctive. However, man’s depravity is an essential defining element of Arminianism and it contrasts Arminianism from other views besides Calvinism (like semi-Pelagianism). Because the Arminians did not take a stance on perseverance, it is not an essential element to defining Arminianism.

So the essential and defining elements of Arminianism are:

1) faith is a condition for election
2) Christ died for all men
3) man cannot save himself, nor do anything good
4) grace is resistible

So you are agreeing with me here thast both Arms/Cal indeed DO affirm that as a result of the fall, we are born"spiritually dead" to God, and that only by His grace being applied to us will we be restored back to Him?

NOT asking you to agree on specific if just the elect/prevelient grace etc, just general idea all of us died in our sin, and God grace has to come to us to iniate us being 'woke up" again!

 

[webdog]

Let's see daeth:
Physical by mine seperation of the soul and spirit at physical death, by yours death of the person period. By mine soul and spirit are seperated from body and go to their eternal home by yours everything dies.

Temporal death = by mine seperation of the filling of the spirit for the believer, the believer commits 1 sin and is under the control of sin and is temporarily seperated from the control of the Holy Spirit (filling). By yours the believer is dead because of sin in his life. By mine confession restores the filling of the Spirit the believer is back under the control of the Spirit. By yours confession will not help there can be no restoration of the filling for the believer is dead to the control of the spirit.

OPerational = the believers is seperated by being continually controled by sin and is operating in the flesh. By my definition of death Repentence and confession restores the believer even if He has been continually operating out of the will of God. By yours he has no hope he is dead.

Sexual = the lose of the ability to reproduce this was reversed in Abraham by God but normally it is a permanent sepration of that ability.

The Second Death = seperation of the unbeliever for eternity from God because they failed to receive Christ.

Finally Spiritual Death= Seperation from the control of the Spirit, we are born in a state of the ability to understand and do Spiritual things, the natural understandeth not the things of God they are foolishness to him, that is Spiritual death, I believe we are born in that stae and stay in tha state until we come to Christ in Salvation. Some on here say we are seperated when sin occurs, so that would be about 3 weeks old to probably 6 months when the first big temper tantrum is pitched by the infant. They don't have to realize it isi sin they just commit it.

So if we go by yours several of the deaths we die their is no hope and the soul and spirit go to the grave with the body, that would be soul sleeping, the bible definitely doesn't teach that.

That's one lengthy strawman you erected there! I'm glad you were able to refute your caricature of what I actually said and believe!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

How would you see it, or do you see us being dead?

No spiritual pulse.
Unable to respond to spiritual stimuli.
Eyes rigid and fixed on worldly things.
Deaf to the word of God.

Steve

 

[preacher4truth]

No spiritual pulse.
Unable to respond to spiritual stimuli.
Eyes rigid and fixed on worldly things.
Deaf to the word of God.

Steve

Yes, and only when God intervenes can a person get saved.

 

[quantumfaith]

So you are agreeing with me here thast both Arms/Cal indeed DO affirm that as a result of the fall, we are born"spiritually dead" to God, and that only by His grace being applied to us will we be restored back to Him?

NOT asking you to agree on specific if just the elect/prevelient grace etc, just general idea all of us died in our sin, and God grace has to come to us to iniate us being 'woke up" again!

JF,

"I think" that is spiritual deadness is as the calvinist defines it, "I think" God would have had much more to say about things when he pronounced the curse after the fall of Adam and Eve.

 

[preacher4truth]

JF,

"I think" that is spiritual deadness is as the calvinist defines it, "I think" God would have had much more to say about things when he pronounced the curse after the fall of Adam and Eve.

Trying to get you here. You're saying that since God didn't say more about it in the immediate context of the fall, that, we are to do what with that?

I think the next several thousand years of Scriptures has had much to say on this, but perhaps I'm wrong and it's really more trivial due to something amiss here at the time of the fall. That God could have said more, or according to your words being more dogmatic, more indictment is being laid on this situation in your saying; "would have had much more to say" making it more definite that this is proof of something about the fall to you, and/or spiritual death and it's significance.

What does not much said in the immediate context mean to you, and prove, in your opinion? This would fall under the "argument from silence" category.

I think His much more said, has been said.

Can you elaborate on this?

 

[quantumfaith]

Trying to get you here. You're saying that since God didn't say more about it in the immediate context of the fall, that, we are to do what with that?

I think the next several thousand years of Scriptures has had much to say on this, but perhaps I'm wrong and it's really more trivial due to something amiss here at the time of the fall. That God could have said more, or according to your words being more dogmatic, more indictment is being laid on this situation in your saying; "would have had much more to say" making it more definite that this is proof of something about the fall to you, and/or spiritual death and it's significance.

What does not much said in the immediate context mean to you, and prove, in your opinion? This would fall under the "argument from silence" category.

I think His much more said, has been said.

Can you elaborate on this?

I am simply trying to say, as I see it, I don't see the total depravity (total inability) the same as the calvinist does. I find myself in agreement with the following:

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism.html#Inability

 

[preacher4truth]

I am simply trying to say, as I see it, I don't see the total depravity (total inability) the same as the calvinist does. I find myself in agreement with the following:

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism.html#Inability

I got that part. Your argument is an argument from silence as your wording necessitates this conclusion.

The (your) statement is dogmatic, and impugning to the immediate context of this passage dealing with the fall and leaves something lacking, in that you've made a pretty significant statement, with no further explanation. All of the authority of what you say rests upon subjectivity.

That you say He "would have had much more to say" on this is why I would like to know what you mean specifically.

Nothing I've ever read in any theological work has ever argued in your wording "would have had much more to say" (God Himself) about the significance of the fall, and furthermore it implicates this passages subject, as diminutive in a sense, specifically again in concise reference not only to the nature of the fall of mankind, but to spiritual death, and the severity of the fall of mankind.

I take that what is being said is that much more would have been said, and in only doing this could we conclude this event to be more significant.

For these reasons I asked for elaboration. The statement is of great weight and gravity, and, I am certain it was not made in a perfunctory manner, but has a basis and objective.

I hope for elaboration from yourself, your link aside.

Thank you.

 

[David Lamb]

No spiritual pulse.
Unable to respond to spiritual stimuli.
Eyes rigid and fixed on worldly things.
Deaf to the word of God.

Steve

Reminds me of the great hymn:

Lord! I was blind, I could not see
In Thy marred visage any grace;
But now the beauty of Thy face
In radiant vision dawns on me.


2 Lord! I was deaf, I could not hear
The thrilling music of Thy voice;
But now I hear Thee and rejoice
And sweet are all Thy words, and dear!


3 Lord! I was dumb, I could not speak
The grace and glory of Thy name;
But now, as touched with living flame,
My lips Thine eager praises wake!


4 Lord! I was dead, I could not stir
My lifeless soul to come to Thee;
But now since Thou hast quickened me
I rise from sin's dark sepulchre!


5 For Thou hast made the blind to see,
The deaf to hear, the dumb to speak,
The dead to five; and Thou didst break
The chains of my captivity!
​

 

[humblethinker]

I am simply trying to say, as I see it, I don't see the total depravity (total inability) the same as the calvinist does. I find myself in agreement with the following:

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism.html#Inability

:thumbs::thumbs: Excellent link!:thumbs::thumbs:

This particularly interesting:
"The Old Testament demands never seemed to be presented as impossibilities for the hearers. Moses said, "Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach" (Deut. 30:11). What of Total Inability here? Are we to assume that all of the hearers had received the miracle of Efficacious Grace? Moses adds, "See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways and the commands, decrees and laws..." (v.19).

and

"Jesus sometimes "marvelled" at the unbelief of his hearers (Mark 6:6). But if he subscribed to and taught Total Inability, it would have been no marvel at all that men would disbelieve God."

 

[kyredneck]

No spiritual pulse.
Unable to respond to spiritual stimuli.
Eyes rigid and fixed on worldly things.
Deaf to the word of God.

Steve

What Steve said.

 

[preacher4truth]

:thumbs::thumbs: Excellent link!:thumbs::thumbs:

This particularly interesting:
"The Old Testament demands never seemed to be presented as impossibilities for the hearers. Moses said, "Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach" (Deut. 30:11). What of Total Inability here? Are we to assume that all of the hearers had received the miracle of Efficacious Grace? Moses adds, "See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways and the commands, decrees and laws..." (v.19).

and

"Jesus sometimes "marvelled" at the unbelief of his hearers (Mark 6:6). But if he subscribed to and taught Total Inability, it would have been no marvel at all that men would disbelieve God."

They were deceived when they thought they could do all that God commanded them. They cannot. Are you suggesting that these humans were able to do all that God commanded, that it was simple, which is contrary to Scripture within the whole entire framework and counsel of God? Or, are you totally misunderstanding what this passage is really saying, like the said link does?

I can name the One and Only who could, and did. I am certain you also can name Him.

To even suggest that they were capable of keeping all of Gods commands is to suggest that man could save themselves, and there was no need of the Savior to come. Think about it.

This is where the problem lies: when man thinks he can.

This link is a perfect example of the dangers of proof-texting. They are clearly in error here.

 

[JesusFan]

JF,

"I think" that is spiritual deadness is as the calvinist defines it, "I think" God would have had much more to say about things when he pronounced the curse after the fall of Adam and Eve.

Do you then see it as being in line with those who would hold that we were "merely marred" by the effects of the Fall, NOT were "made dead" by it...

that we then do and have the means within us still to accept/reject Chrsit apart from God, God still left 'enough" of His image in us to freely decide?

 

[JesusFan]

I got that part. Your argument is an argument from silence as your wording necessitates this conclusion.

The (your) statement is dogmatic, and impugning to the immediate context of this passage dealing with the fall and leaves something lacking, in that you've made a pretty significant statement, with no further explanation. All of the authority of what you say rests upon subjectivity.

That you say He "would have had much more to say" on this is why I would like to know what you mean specifically.

Nothing I've ever read in any theological work has ever argued in your wording "would have had much more to say" (God Himself) about the significance of the fall, and furthermore it implicates this passages subject, as diminutive in a sense, specifically again in concise reference not only to the nature of the fall of mankind, but to spiritual death, and the severity of the fall of mankind.

I take that what is being said is that much more would have been said, and in only doing this could we conclude this event to be more significant.

For these reasons I asked for elaboration. The statement is of great weight and gravity, and, I am certain it was not made in a perfunctory manner, but has a basis and objective.

I hope for elaboration from yourself, your link aside.

Thank you.

Doesn't this all fall under doctrine of "progreesive revelation" in the Bible?

ALL indded Inspired, but doctrinal truths "added upon/filled in" as time went on?

 

[quantumfaith]

Do you then see it as being in line with those who would hold that we were "merely marred" by the effects of the Fall, NOT were "made dead" by it...

that we then do and have the means within us still to accept/reject Chrsit apart from God, God still left 'enough" of His image in us to freely decide?

I think we are equipped to hear and respond to the gospel message of salvation, whether it was residual remaining after the fall or preveniently placed there by God subsequently, I cannot answer.