What is your definition of foreknowledge and...

[humblethinker]

You don't have to agree, but I believe this passage shows Jesus knew Nathanael's heart before his brother called him.
...
Jesus then answered that BEFORE Nathanael was CALLED, he SAW Nathanael and this is how he KNEW him. This is exactly what Rom 8:29-30 says.
...
...Jesus knew Nathanael's heart and faith before they ever met.

After hearing this, then Nathanael actually believed on Jesus.

We at least both agree on the above.
I do wonder when you would say it was that Jesus foreknew Nathanael as you describe. Did God know the Nathanael under the tree at the beginning of creation before He created Adam or sometime after but before Nathanael was actually under the tree or when Nathanael was actually under the tree... ?

 

[webdog]

We at least both agree on the above.
I do wonder when you would say it was that Jesus foreknew Nathanael as you describe. Did God know the Nathanael under the tree at the beginning of creation before He created Adam or sometime after but before Nathanael was actually under the tree or when Nathanael was actually under the tree... ?

There was no point when He didn't in his omniscience know.

To answer the op, in a linear understanding by finite beings foreknow means to know beforehand. Since God is both omniscient and omnipresent (including time) this does not apply to Him but is a measure given us in describing the undescribeable.

 

[humblethinker]

There was no point when He didn't in his omniscience knew.

To answer the op, in a linear understanding by finite beings foreknow means to know beforehand. Since God is both omniscient and omnipresent (including time) this does not apply to Him but is a measure given us in describing the undescribeable.

So, would you say that God knows possibilities as ontological realities?

 

[webdog]

So, would you say that God knows possibilities as ontological realities?

How can there be a possibility when one exists in every milisecond of time? The mystery is in how one who possesses these qualities and attributes interacts with those who do not.

 

[humblethinker]

How can there be a possibility when one exists in every milisecond of time? The mystery is in how one who possesses these qualities and attributes interacts with those who do not.

I don't quite understand the first question. What I mean to ask is at any given moment there may be many possibilities that are available to me. I believe that they are real in that one could be performed instead of the other. In your view does God know these possibilities as real possibilities or is there only one possibility I could perform and all of the others are an illusion of my perception?

 

[humblethinker]

There was no point when He didn't in his omniscience know.

Do you mean That God's knowledge was limited to this certainty to the exclusion of any other possibilities? If so, do you mean that there could not have been any other way of knowing Nathanael at that moment but under the tree?

 

[Van]

Not so fast... 1 Peter 1:2 only says what you want based on assumptions. Exegetically, it is easier to see "foreknow" related to the dispersion or the nations of the dispersion or to the exiles before it refers to "elect". Not saying it can't refer to "elect" but it can just as easily or even easier refer to something else completely.

1 Peter 1:2 says what it says for anyone willing to read it straightup. The believers of the dispersion were chosen according to God's foreknowledge is how it reads. So the NIV, ESV, NASB, and NKJV. The method or how they were chosen is by the sanctifying work of the Spirit who set those chosen apart for obedience and sprinkling with the blood of Jesus.

Folks the Calvinist assertion that foreknow and Foreknowledge are not used to describe actions based on prior plans of action, i.e. God's plan of redemption formulated before creation, is simply fiction.

 

[webdog]

Do you mean That God's knowledge was limited to this certainty to the exclusion of any other possibilities? If so, do you mean that there could not have been any other way of knowing Nathanael at that moment but under the tree?

I'm not sure I get what you are asking, can you rephrase the question?

 

[humblethinker]

I'm not sure I get what you are asking, can you rephrase the question?

Sure... just to recap...

There was no point when He didn't in his omniscience know.

To answer the op, in a linear understanding by finite beings foreknow means to know beforehand. Since God is both omniscient and omnipresent (including time) this does not apply to Him but is a measure given us in describing the undescribeable.

Do you mean That God's knowledge was limited to this certainty to the exclusion of any other possibilities? If so, do you mean that there could not have been any other way of knowing Nathanael at that moment but under the tree?

So, would you say that God knows possibilities as ontological realities?

Maybe contrasting your view with mine may help deliver the meaning of my question. I think we both would agree that God cannot believe a false belief, correct? That is to say, He cannot believe something that is not true.

In my view, it is true that I have several options at some future moment that I am yet to experience, possibilities if you will, this is a true statement. God knows these options/possibilities and God knows these possibilities as truly existing. At creation these very options/possibilities were real and therefore known to God. In fact, my view would propose that at creation all possibilities and options were real and known by God. This doesn't mean that anything was possible but just means that all things that were truly possible were known to God.

In your view, God knew at creation what I will actually do at that future moment referred to above. God, at creation, also knows that I will think that I have options/possibilities as referred to in my view above. He knows how I will deliberate and seek his guidance and He knows how he will answer. Since He can only have a true belief, He therefore cannot believe like I do, that the multiple options I will think I have are real since the action I will certainly take is already known to Him at creation and cannot be otherwise. While I may pray to Him as to what I should do, how shall He counsel me to act if I will only do the thing that He already knew I would do?

So, it follows that if God has omniscience as the classical arminian posits, then there can be no ontologically real possibilities other than what God knows will certainly happen since that which will certainly happen cannot happen otherwise. It must be the case then that the options/possibilities that humans think they have are only their perception.

This is why I asked my questions above.

 

[agedman]

1 Peter 1:2 says what it says for anyone willing to read it straightup. The believers of the dispersion were chosen according to God's foreknowledge is how it reads. So the NIV, ESV, NASB, and NKJV. The method or how they were chosen is by the sanctifying work of the Spirit who set those chosen apart for obedience and sprinkling with the blood of Jesus.

Folks the Calvinist assertion that foreknow and Foreknowledge are not used to describe actions based on prior plans of action, i.e. God's plan of redemption formulated before creation, is simply fiction.

Folks, Van's assumptions are wrong for as the list of verses posted below shows there is a book of life with all the names already recorded from BEFORE the foundations of the world were established. It further shows that that those who were NOT written in the book from before the foundation of the world were deceived?

These verses each have three words, together - "the book of life."

Philippians 4:3 And I entreat thee also, true yoke fellow, help those women which labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow laborers, whose names are in the book of life.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither whatsoever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.​

Certainly, there are OT references to "thy book" in which some might assume refers to the book of life (example of Moses's prayer to blot out his name), but they could refer to the books of man works mentioned in the Revelation 20:12.

NO Scripture ever indicates names are ADDED; it follows that either all names of every humankind were in the book and some blotted out (therefore, all humankind is saved despite any belief or not) or, that only the names of ones in whom God new, before the foundations of the world were established, as His sheep were placed in the book of life. If one considers that the believer is in Christ, then it is that the Christ in practical application the essence if not the actual book of life.

The question that Van must answer to hold to his view is, when were names ever ADDED to the book of life AFTER the foundation of this world?

He ultimately cannot reconcile his view with the Scriptures; consistently he is obliged to add great pejoratives of discredit upon the Calvinistic thinking in hope of gaining some credibility. Credibility attained in this fashion is a false hope built upon a frail structure doomed to collapse.

 

[Iconoclast]

139 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.

5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!



The psalmist seemed to know and be known by God:thumbs:

 

[OldRegular]

Pink states: The fact is that "foreknowledge" is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons. It is persons God is said to "foreknow," not the actions of those persons.

Dagg states: Moreover, the objects of this divine foreknowledge are the persons of the elect, and not their faith or good works. . . . From a state of condemnation, God, according to His purpose in election, delivers some by His renewing grace,

It seems to me that some people are confusing the omniscience of God, His infinite knowledge, with His knowing those persons whom He choses to salvation in Jesus Christ.

Response by Winman
That is plain dumb. How can you personally know a person and not know about their faith? How can you not know about their good (or bad) works?

Do you know if your wife has faith? Do you know her works? Do you know if your children have faith or not? Do you know their works?

Dumb.

Winman you have an uncanny ability to prove my points!:thumbs::laugh: Many Thanks!:thumbs: :laugh:

 

[psalms109:31]

Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

Psalm 69:28
May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

Luke 12:9
But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.

Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

2 Peter 1 :
Confirming One’s Calling and Election

3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family.] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[webdog]

Sure... just to recap...





Maybe contrasting your view with mine may help deliver the meaning of my question. I think we both would agree that God cannot believe a false belief, correct? That is to say, He cannot believe something that is not true.

In my view, it is true that I have several options at some future moment that I am yet to experience, possibilities if you will, this is a true statement. God knows these options/possibilities and God knows these possibilities as truly existing. At creation these very options/possibilities were real and therefore known to God. In fact, my view would propose that at creation all possibilities and options were real and known by God. This doesn't mean that anything was possible but just means that all things that were truly possible were known to God.

In your view, God knew at creation what I will actually do at that future moment referred to above. God, at creation, also knows that I will think that I have options/possibilities as referred to in my view above. He knows how I will deliberate and seek his guidance and He knows how he will answer. Since He can only have a true belief, He therefore cannot believe like I do, that the multiple options I will think I have are real since the action I will certainly take is already known to Him at creation and cannot be otherwise. While I may pray to Him as to what I should do, how shall He counsel me to act if I will only do the thing that He already knew I would do?

So, it follows that if God has omniscience as the classical arminian posits, then there can be no ontologically real possibilities other than what God knows will certainly happen since that which will certainly happen cannot happen otherwise. It must be the case then that the options/possibilities that humans think they have are only their perception.

This is why I asked my questions above.

I don't see a whole lot of disagreement between the two to be honest. If anything the first view could lead one to open theism (not that I think you believe that). We also must remember we are trying to understand this from our vantage point. I do agree we have real options, a real free will...and I also believe God exists inside and outside of time and at all points in time at the same time (true omnipresence). How that all works...it blows my mind! I have no problem appealing to mystery concerning this, and is one of the reasons I wish calvinists would do the same in reconciling His omniscience with free will. It is inexplicable.

 

[Winman]

Winman you have an uncanny ability to prove my points!:thumbs::laugh: Many Thanks!:thumbs: :laugh:

If you think it is possible to "personally" know a person, and yet know nothing about what they believe or do, it is you that needs to think.

When speaking of others in life, if we say we know someone well, everyone understands that we know that person in a personal way. We probably know what they believe, we know their likes and dislikes, we know their friends and family, we know if their deeds are good or bad. If we do not know these things, we say we do not know the person well, we might even say the person is a stranger if we know almost nothing about them. So, this doctrine that God knows us, yet not based on anything we believe or do is ridiiculous to say the least.

How can God know us apart from these things? Are you saying God simply recognizes our face, he simply knows our name and that is all? Absurd. You cannot separate a person from what they believe and what they do. What we believe and what we do is the very essence of our personality.

The fact is, the scriptures say that God does not know us in this personal way until we believe on Jesus.

Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Verse 8 is obviously speaking of a person before they believe on Christ. We did not know God in a personal way at this time, there was no personal relationship between us and God.

BUT NOW, after we have been saved by trusting in Jesus, NOW we know God. But notice this is also when God comes to know us!

So, when the scriptures speak of God's foreknowledge, and those whom he did "foreknow", it is speaking of this foreknowledge of God that can see this personal relationship that begins WHEN we trust on Christ. We NOW know God, and God NOW knows us in this personal way.

You can disagree, but the scriptures say we are chosen "in him". God in his foreknowledge could see those who would believe, he saw those "in Christ". It is only when we are "in Christ" that we have this personal relationship where God knows us in an intimate way, and we also begin to know God in an intimate way.

But God in his foreknowledge could see this before it actually took place in time.

Ridicule all you want, it is all you've got.

 

[Yeshua1]

God foreknew those whom he would save in christ before the very foundation of the earth was laid, as He had already determined just whom the benefits of the atonement of the Cross would be apllied upon...

He knew them ina way that means that he personally was involved in preselecting them out, as the lessor amount of of sinful humanity, Individual salvation basis...

NOT corporate election, knowing they would place their faith in jesus etc!

 

[convicted1]

God foreknew those whom he would save in christ before the very foundation of the earth was laid, as He had already determined just whom the benefits of the atonement of the Cross would be apllied upon...

He knew them ina way that means that he personally was involved in preselecting them out, as the lessor amount of of sinful humanity, Individual salvation basis...

NOT corporate election, knowing they would place their faith in jesus etc!

Which brings us back to the crux of this debate. Why did God preselect His elect before He even created them?

 

[agedman]

Which brings us back to the crux of this debate. Why did God preselect His elect before He even created them?

Why not?

Are sinful unregenerate in a position that they can question God or bring any accusation against God?

Somethings are just not given to humankind to know, and if it were explained doubtful it would be understood.

 

[webdog]

Why not?

Are sinful unregenerate in a position that they can question God or bring any accusation against God?

Somethings are just not given to humankind to know, and if it were explained doubtful it would be understood.

Actually they have the perfect excuse for rejecting Him! How do you not see that? If I was locked up and sentenced to death today for being born in the Webdog family, I would appeal to not having the option!

 

[OldRegular]

Which brings us back to the crux of this debate. Why did God preselect His elect before He even created them?

Read Scripture!!!!

Romans 9:17-24
17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?